Gill Moakes 0:00
Welcome, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me again on the heads together Podcast. I'm always so happy to have you with me. And never more so than this week. I am joined by a fantastic coach, Gemma Rabbini. I've known Gemma for a little while now. She is an awesome coach who helps women who are really going through career transitions, or what she calls squiggly career moments that you just love that. And Gemma is joining me today to talk about impostor syndrome. And this is one of those episodes where I don't really know what to expect from this conversation because Gemma has a different name for impostor syndrome. And she hasn't shared with me what that is yet. And she said, it's, you know, it's quite a paradigm shift around looking at imposter syndrome and what it is and why it holds us back. And how we can overcome it. I know that many of you deal with impostor syndrome regularly. I know it's something that pops its head up quite often.
Gill Moakes 1:19
I know that because you tell me it's one of the questions I get asked the most is around how to deal with impostor syndrome, when it comes to growing your business. So I think this is going to be a really interesting episode. I think we're gonna get a lot out of this. I can't wait for you to meet Gemma.
Gill Moakes 1:42
Welcome, welcome to the heads together Podcast. I'm Gill Moakes. And I am obsessed with cutting through the noise when it comes to growing your business each week via intimate coaching conversations and inspirational stories. I share what it really takes to get the results you want, in a way that feels right to you.
Gill Moakes 2:05
I am all about attracting higher ticket opportunities, building authentic relationships, and creating the abundant full fat version of your dream business. I mean, how many of us have even away creating a light version of what we really want? The thing is, I honestly believe when you're outstanding at what you do, there is no limit to what you can achieve. So are you ready to put our heads together and make it happen? Let's go. Hi, Gemma.
Gemma Rabbini 2:46
Hello, how are you?
Gill Moakes 2:48
I'm good. How are you?
Gemma Rabbini 2:50
I am brilliant.
Gill Moakes 2:51
I'm so happy to have you join me.
Gemma Rabbini 2:54
I'm delighted to be here.
Gill Moakes 2:56
Good, good, good. I'd love you to tell our listeners a bit about yourself and I was the reason I hesitated there was because one of the things that I loved that you put in your email, when we corresponded recently was that you help women with squiggly career moments?
Gemma Rabbini 3:16
Yeah.
Gill Moakes 3:17
Ah, I love that. Tell me what that is and what you do.
Gemma Rabbini 3:21
I love the word squiggle because I think it just has no negative positive. It's just something that happens. And the way that I define career squiggles, is anything that kind of takes you away from a linear expected journey. So a squiggling your career could be maternity leave. It could be a redundancy, it could be reassessing what you want to do and going, You know what, this doesn't fit me anymore, I'm going to do something different. So where your career squiggles around and perhaps you might have a portfolio career for a bit, you might go into a different industry, just where it kind of doesn't feel like you've taken the expected route. And I love that because it can cover a multitude of things. You know, redundancy, menopause, and those squiggly moments, your confidence is often at a funny place, and you need, you're transitioning into something different. So I love the word squiggle just because it reminds me of, you know, it's that childhood enjoyment, isn't
Gill Moakes 4:20
It is where's this gonna go? I love it, too. It really stood out to me as oh my god. And just as then as you explained the context that you use it and it's like, so spot on. Because you're right, it is a squiggle, it's not always a dip or a peak in terms of what's going on for us. Sometimes it is a complete squiggle. So I really like that.
Gemma Rabbini 4:43
Yeah.
Gill Moakes 4:43
So who do you tell us who you work with and what you do?
Gemma Rabbini 4:46
I tend to work typically with women who are facing a squiggle of some sort. So corporate women, women in business, a lot of women who are coming back from maternity leave, because that's kind of a chosen squiggle in some ways. And I also work with women who have been made redundant, often for a long time in corporate world, which is often not a chosen squiggle. But it's something that's kind of forced on them. And I particularly love working with women, because I think pretty much every woman is brilliant, but often doesn't realise it. And I just love that ability to just pull out the brilliance in somebody and be able to kind of hold a mirror up and say, this is what I see. And let them see themselves in a different way. So I think women need a bit of cheerleading sometimes. And yeah, so I love that.
Gill Moakes 5:37
I really totally resonate with that. I think you're absolutely right. And I think as coaches, I think that's the massive satisfaction we get isn't it is holding up that mirror and say, look at you look at what you can do, I think, yeah, that's one of the most fulfilling parts of what we do. Yeah, absolutely.
Gemma Rabbini 5:59
I think a lot of the time, women put a lot of shoulds in there, they should themselves all the time, I do shoot themselves. Just because I can, I probably should, I should have this kind of career, I should look like this, when I come back from maternity leave. A leader should be like this. And I just scrap the shirt. Ditch the shirt.
Gill Moakes 6:20
I think that is so true. And I catch myself doing all the time too. And I think the key is recognising when you're doing it, isn't it and just catching yourself when you are shooting? Shooting yourself?
Gemma Rabbini 6:36
Yeah.
Gill Moakes 6:37
do you see that a lot with the women you work with that they are kind of putting these expectations on themselves that aren't necessarily even what they want?
Gemma Rabbini 6:51
Yeah, I think it's such a good point. And I particularly think that women are, perhaps from the women that I speak to not particularly good at giving themselves space to even think about what they might want to do or how they might want to be. So therefore, what fills the gap is this societal expectation, when I have a baby, I should be happy. When I go back to work, I should be able to do the number of hours that I was before I went off. If I'm in made redundant, I will be expected to go into the same job somewhere else. And it's like, have you actually given yourself the space and time and the massive bits of A3 paper to just dream and go, What do I want? Not? What do I think I should want? What does my mother in law think I should do? What does my husband expect me to do? And I think the shoulds kind of creep in because we haven't got anything else to aim for or to kind of anchor ourselves on. So yeah, I hear a lot of shoulds. And interestingly, it can be quite easy to just let them slide. And as a woman coaching women, I do it to myself as well. So when people say, well, I should do this, you kind of go yeah oh, hang on. You have to spot them, you have to be quite alert to them.
Gill Moakes 8:02
Yes, I agree. I completely agree. I think that's interesting what you just said about, sometimes we're not great at giving ourselves space to think about what we really want. And I think that is so true. But I think we're also pretty bad sometimes at going off to what we really want. Would you agree?
Gemma Rabbini 8:27
Yeah, totally. Because, again, women tend to have this expectation on themselves or kind of wherever it comes from, of being in service to other people. And I hear a lot of people who I coached saying, well, I need to take sensei to ballet. And so I can't go to that, because I need to do this. And I want you know, and they will prioritise other people's stuff, whether it's children, whether it's family, whether it's neighbours, and I think society dictates that women should be amenable and kind and giving and building rapport keeping their head down and not being too disruptive. And actually, why should we? There's a lot of things that mean that we restrict ourselves because we put everyone else's desires ahead of our own. And if you are a people pleaser, like I am, that is exacerbated beyond belief. So actually, what you're left with is like, what time have I got left to do anything that I want to do? Personally, what I learnt going back from one of my maternity leaves was actually happy mum, happy baby, like I need to prioritise what I need to do, even if that is just going for a 10 minute walk around the block once a day. And it might not be massive things but I think building that confidence to be kind of wisely selfish about how you spend your time. Selfish is quite a negative word which used in quite a negative way. But when you've got a dream, you need to be wisely selfish about how you're going to spend your time and how you're going to move towards it. So, yeah, it's very, very true.
Gill Moakes 10:05
I love the phrase wisely selfish, because you're right. I think selfish, has negative connotations. But it's certainly not a negative concept, like prioritising yourself at times is absolutely essential for your health, your wellbeing of your family, everything, you know, you need to be selfish. Interestingly, and I don't always love differentiating between the genders. But I do think that it is something that women are quicker to accuse themselves of being selfish, I think than men are, it seems to be that something and I think you're right, it's that societal expectation of women as being nurturing and caretaking.
Gemma Rabbini 10:53
Yes, I felt that the wisely bit for me made a massive difference when I was kind of spoken to about it by one of my coaches. And I thought wisely, it's very conscious. And it's very deliberate. And it doesn't need to be just, I'm selfish. I'm gonna bang my fists on the table. I need this. I need that. But it's about being really conscious about what does prioritising myself, mean to me? Is it a walk? Is it a coffee with a friend once a month? Actually? Is it having a bath on a Sunday night? Is it it can be really small things? Or it could be massive things? Is it putting my children's childcare when I don't technically need to? Is that what I need in order to top myself up so that I can give my best to the world in whatever way that means? But yeah, the wisely was just very, very interesting in terms of the language you use around it, because otherwise selfish to me is just, you know, stamp your feet and want something that you haven't got and get cross. If you haven't got it.
Gill Moakes 11:52
You're absolutely right. The language of using wisely makes it completely intentional. Versus a default position.
Gemma Rabbini 12:01
Yeah, yeah. Being crossed and angry with the world and wanting something different.
Gill Moakes 12:06
Yeah. So I know in today's episode, we are going to have a little chat about impostor syndrome. Because that, definitely, and I think we both agree on this, don't worry that that's one of the things we come across with clients a lot when it comes to going after what they really want. So, you know, those clients who do make the time and space to figure out what they want, then come up against this second great big hurdle, which is that imposter syndrome that tells them that maybe they're not good enough to go after that. So I'm really excited to hear from you your take on this because I know you have a slightly kind of like a shift in paradigm on this, don't you?
Gemma Rabbini 12:51
Yeah, so I feel that the phrase imposter syndrome makes it feel like something that you suffer from that it's lurgi of some sort. And so I kind of reject that phraseology, because I think it's got quite negative connotations. And I feel like it takes away the empowerment from anyone to do anything about it. So impostor syndrome, and I have got a new name for it is essentially that gap between how you see yourself and how others see you. A lot of the time, that gap is the feeling of not being worthy, not being good enough, keeping your head down, hoping no one notices, which a lot of people say, Oh, it's just quite humble. But actually, if you let that carry on, that's got some quite negative issues that can come as a result, as I say, I don't like the phrase imposter syndrome. So I've kind of rebranded it to high achievers doubt. Because, so impostor syndrome only really rears its head, when you are kind of in a growth, a period of growth, something that you're doing that's different from what you were perhaps really super comfortable doing. So it's actually a really positive thing. And if you are a high achiever, you are naturally pushing yourself. So actually, if you are a high achiever, you just have moments of doubt. It's not you didn't, you're doubting yourself in the whole of your world and your whole of your life. But what you're doing is driving for something and striving for, you know, a great result or a different lifestyle or something amazing. And you just have that doubt. And I think actually, it can be a really positive thing. Because if you had no doubt, and you just were kind of blazing on regardless, totally oblivious to how you were coming across or sort of, Oh, is that correct? Or do I have enough evidence for that? I think you could potentially land stuff in a suboptimal way. You could perhaps kind of come across in a way that you don't consciously want to. So I think those moments of doubt were actually quite valuable. And actually most people who are high achievers, you have a higher proportion of people in that category that suffer from this sort of moments of doubt. And this kind of this high achievers doubt.
Gemma Rabbini 15:12
I love the thought of the moments of doubt almost being these little markers, just to draw your attention back to being in the moment and checking in on yourself and what you're doing, what a brilliant reframe that is. So instead of the imposter syndrome, which is kind of this very, I think quite often when I think of imposter syndrome, and when I talk to clients about it, it can be as severe as feeling very paralysing. And I think this reframe of looking at it like, well hang on the fact you're pushing yourself to do something that's outside of your comfort zone, means you're already that kind of high achiever who's aiming high, who's reaching forward. And so those moments of doubt, are your little markers just to check in on yourself. I really liked that idea.
Gemma Rabbini 16:10
And it's some sometimes it's as simple as you know, you're about to stand up and give a presentation in front of loads of people. And you suddenly think, you know, oh, I haven't, I don't know, been in their position. So how will I ever, you know, how will I ever be able to deliver this message and actually, what it might trigger you to do is go, do you know what, I'm going to call that out. And I'm going to say, Guys, I've never done your job. And I couldn't imagine XYZ. But you know, the information I need to give you today is blah, and it just makes you it sometimes connects you with your audience better. Or it could mean that you position something in a different way. Or just that you go, is that really the best way? Have you know, have I really thought about what it is that I'm doing here? And I think it's, it is a marker, it's a lovely way to think about it actually is kind of a just a point of going and also a point of going, Oh, this is feeling a little bit squiggly, and potentially a bit of a trigger. But why is that?
Gill Moakes 17:08
I was just gonna say, you know, how can that how can we start looking at those kind of deep breath moments that feel uncomfortable? How can we suddenly think, okay, if I'm feeling that I know I'm doing something, right? And good is gonna come next.
Gemma Rabbini 17:22
And it often means that someone else has put their trust in you, or belief in you to do something. And that's the other thing that you do the whole big breath thing. But often, some of the reasons why you're doing starting something new starting a new role, starting your own business doing something new, it's actually because someone else has gone. I believe in you or, they've gone, you should do that you'd be really good. So I think, you know, sometimes the growth moments are you have to kind of realise where they come from. And then the trigger of like, okay, this is me doing it now. This is exciting.
Gill Moakes 17:55
Yeah, absolutely. I love the picture you painted just now of if you were going to do a big speech, for example, and just that maybe call out if you're feeling that you don't know something. And that really resonates with me, I am a massive fan of really like radical transparency, radical authenticity. So I think it absolutely is one of the keys to banishing that imposter syndrome is, imposter syndrome can only thrive if on some level, you think you're pretending to be something you're not. So anytime you get that opportunity to be really radical in your transparency, and share exactly the truth of where you are and what you do, and how you do it. I think that makes it really hard for impostor syndrome to thrive.
Gemma Rabbini 18:48
I love that so much because you take away the armour, it's a vulnerable thing to do. But once you take away that armour, no one needs to feel like they need a sword to kind of fight you because they're like, oh, but you've come to this like a human and you get so much more respect, be authentic and say, actually, I'm a bit worried about telling you this. I mean, your guard goes right down, doesn't it as the person receiving that news to say, you know what, this is the first time I've delivered news like this, and I'm actually actually feeling a bit anxious about it and I really hope that I deliver it in a way that really respects you or you know, and you can kind of people just aren't quite shocked, particularly if you're in quite a senior level role or you're leading a business or you're leading a team that just changes the dynamic and I think I love the idea your words around this radical nurse around transparency. I think that's it's like magic. When someone actually with you as a human
Gill Moakes 19:46
I agree. Yeah, absolutely. It's refreshing. It like you say it puts the other person in the frame of not needing any armour or like you say no one needs a sword if you're taking off your armour, so I think that's absolutely right. Yeah, so Gemma is is imposter syndrome you find, do you find it something that you are tackling with your clients over and over?
Gemma Rabbini 20:13
Yeah, I find that quite often the reason that people come to me because they have heard this phrase. And that's why it's quite an interesting one, because it's become quite societally appropriate and kind of okay to say, I've got it, I'm suffering from the lurgi. I've got this impostor syndrome. So people often come to me, in that kind of guise to say, really resonated with me, I've been given a big promotion, perhaps at work, or I've moved to this company, and I'm now in charge of a bigger team. And I just feel like, I'm trying to put up my barriers. And I'm trying to sort of give this persona, and I can't talk to anyone about it. Because I've pretended, and if they feel like they fraudulently got this job, and it's like, fraud is quite a strong word, isn't it?
Gill Moakes 20:59
Isn't that funny? It is. And I think that's a word that women use quite a lot actually say, oh, I feel like a fraud. And it's so the wrong word. Because that just suggests intention around deceiving someone.
Gemma Rabbini 21:14
And actually, all we're trying to do is just better ourselves, either in the stretch of skill or passion to change something or more purposeful kind of work. And the number of times I hear women I was in a shop the other day, and I heard these two women talking, it was essentially a competition to see who could be the biggest like hot mess. One of them was like, I don't know why they still employ me. I only did you know two hours work yesterday, or they're gonna find me out. The other one was I've forgotten the lunchboxes. I haven't done this, the PTA I'm back on. And I was listening to them and being like, oh, my gosh, you are you are literally just competing to be the biggest disasterous
Gill Moakes 21:56
It's like disaster top trumps.
Gemma Rabbini 21:58
And and I was kind of like, oh my gosh, but it's so normalised that there's something about being the person in that conversation, who can say who can stop it, because it's quite escalating. And it's something that women do all the time to each other to themselves. And actually, no one calls it out, because it's somehow just a thing that is socially acceptable to be Oh, I'm a disaster. I'm a disaster. Sometimes you look at like the emojis that you use, and this like the head plot the face, smack or their face.
Gill Moakes 22:30
Oh, yes. I do that all the time.
Gemma Rabbini 22:34
I was scrolling through my phone. And I was like, I wonder why I use that. And I think the reason is that it just makes you seem a little bit less threatening to anyone else who's around. So you're like, Oh, I forgot your birthday. faceplant. And it's like, well, but I forgot your birthday. Because, like, I'm running a business. And I've got two children under six, and I'm doing all these things. And I've, you know, helping these people or I'm driving towards my goals have to be like faceplant or.
Gill Moakes 23:02
Yeah, I'm not an idiot. I just forgot your birthday.
Gemma Rabbini 23:05
And I'm sorry. And I wish I hadn't. But actually, it doesn't mean I'm less of a human.
Gill Moakes 23:10
Absolutely, gosh, that's I've never really thought of that before. But that blooming face palm emoji creeps in everywhere. I'm going to be really mindful of when I use that now. And I hope everyone listening, I hope you do, too. Because I think that's a big one. It's a tiny thing. But it is really indicative of the way we put ourselves down habitually.
Gemma Rabbini 23:40
If a friend said, I forgot your birthday? Would you send that back to them? And it's like just challenging yourself on? Would you do that to someone else? No, because it would make them feel bad. And it would make them feel like they were sort of failed at remembering your birthday? And if you wouldn't do it to a friend. Why do you do it to yourself?
Gill Moakes 23:58
And interesting, because when we do that to ourselves, when we do put ourselves down in that way, is it any wonder that we allow the imposter syndrome to creep in, because we're on the one hand, we're telling ourselves that we've done something silly, or we've made a mistake, or we're not good enough. On the other hand, we try and push ourselves to do something that's stretching, and then wonder why we don't feel up to the job. They're very linked.
Gemma Rabbini 24:26
And I think one of the ways that I sort of talk to clients about how to kind of counteract it is actually to just recognise when the voices in your head are saying something to you, and almost call them out as a voice in itself. So don't think that's my actual thought. That's true. That's part of me, but kind of go, if I've said I'm not good enough, or if I've said I've let them down, or if I've said you know, somehow I'm an impostor because I've done something, almost just kind of go well, that's interesting. That voice said that and separate it for in your own brain, because we kind of trust our brains to be right. And to keep us safe, and to be the truth. But in reality, those negative voices that are kind of coming into our brain saying, you're not good enough or whatever, if you can kind of almost separate them from truth and say, oh, that's a mean voice. What did that that said that I wasn't good. I wonder what was going on there. I wonder why it thinks that about me, rather than it but you know, we internalise it immediately, don't we? And say, Well, I'm not good enough.
Gill Moakes 25:32
Yeah, I completely agree. The other use of one is, is that true? That's a simple one, as well, to us, you know. So separating the voices, as you say, couldn't agree more. And also same. But is that true? Because we do often, like you said earlier, we do catastrophize as well. So we might make a very small mistake, and suddenly, we're the biggest idiot in the world. Was that true? Or did I just make a tiny mistake?
Gemma Rabbini 25:59
Yeah. Yeah. Was that just a tiny bit of something that went really, really well. And the other thing that I like after? Is that true is, is it helpful? Because actually, I do speak to women? Well, I speak to a lot of people, but women particularly that say, actually, it is helpful to have that thought, because it means that next time I'll do something different. So even, you know, I'm a complete failure. Is it true? No. But I feel like I failed, because I hadn't spent enough time preparing the technology. And that made me feel stressed. So next time, I'm going to do X Y Z. So sometimes it's about acknowledging that, is it helpful? Well, a tiny bit of it might be helpful, the rest of that feeling of failure might be completely useless in terms of a positive thought.
Gill Moakes 26:43
It's like weeding out the helpful bit holding on to that, and then recognising the rest of this catastrophizing.
Gemma Rabbini 26:50
Yeah. It is like a proper dandelion in your like, meadow of flowers. And just kind of going, do I want that? No, I'll just pick the bits that I want.
Gill Moakes 27:01
Yeah, I love that. I love that. Give a tell me one thing. What is it like when someone comes to you? And they feel like they're, like you said earlier, which is not a great way to put it, but they're suffering from impostor syndrome. And then they have this reframe, you know, it's not impostor syndrome, I love your phrase of its high achievers doubt, just absolutely love that. And once they get that kind of reframing, are able to see things through that slightly different paradigm. What do you see.
Gemma Rabbini 27:35
Oh my gosh, this is why I do this job. Because when people have that change, of reframing, or whatever, you kind of think about it, their confidence, just grows and grows. And every time you see them, they're pushing themselves a little bit more into an area, perhaps a conversation that they wouldn't have had, or something that they wouldn't have necessarily vocalised or something they wouldn't have been brave enough to do. And I think, you know, people visiting parents that estranged parents that they haven't seen for, for ages, because they, you know, their kind of feelings of impostor syndrome were driven from a father who always said X, Y, Z about them. And they were like, You know what, I matter just because I exist, I matter because I exist. And I am a full person, and actually just accepting themselves for who they are and what they are, and accepting that they're not perfect, and nobody's perfect, and almost just resetting expectations for themselves. And I think when people do that, you just see, they just seem taller, they just walk, they sit taller, and they walk taller, and they the way that they talk about themselves is different. And that is I just love the change in people, but it's all come from them. And they've made the realisations and they've kind of realised the things that weren't quite going right for them and the pressure they were putting on themselves. And I always think of it like a car. When you're younger, there's certain things you've learned to think like that you learn survival when you're younger, when you're a child, when you're kind of developing your personality. If you're driving a car, you start in first gear, and then you change the second gear. And then by the time you're at sixth gear, you're just powering along. And actually, I don't think necessarily, that we do that consciously. And I think allowing someone to see impostor syndrome for what it is allows them to change gear and kind of move on to the life that they want to live. It's just amazing. I just want to wave my clients into the distance.
Gill Moakes 29:40
That's wonderful. I love that metaphor. I love it in my head. I'm totally picturing it and in my head. The client has their arm waving out the window and watching you in their rearview mirror. So
Gemma Rabbini 29:56
The Top Gear kind of they've got the Stig on the other side.
Gill Moakes 30:03
For my American listeners, that's going to be nothing whatsoever. I might put a link, I might put a link in the show notes to Top Gear. Really, that has been a really enlightening conversation. And I just love that reframe. I think for everyone listening, that's going to really land. Because like, everything in life and business, things are choices, we have choices of how to feel, and choices of how to look at something. So I just really appreciate that reframe. I think it's absolutely great. Tell me for anyone listening, who would love to find out more about you, and how they can reach out to you or read more.
Gemma Rabbini 30:51
So my company is Coach and Bloom, and I am on LinkedIn a lot, and hanging out there writing various things that come into my mind about how people can navigate these squiggly moments in their careers. And my website is www.coach andbloom.co.uk. So I have my packages are on there. And I just love chatting to people. And I do a free kind of initial discovery call, just to kind of see if there's the right chemistry for people if I can help them transition in the right way into you know, waving them into the distance in their Ferrari around, you know, the Top Gear mountain side.
Gill Moakes 31:32
Love it. Yes. I love it. Love it. I will put all of those links into the show notes. And I just want to thank you so much for coming on today. And sharing this has been so enjoyable. And I just loved our conversation. And I could talk about this stuff all day, but I realised you've got a limit.
Gill Moakes 31:49
Well, we'll end this one and then we can carry on afterwards. No, that's actually mean. That's really that's really mean everyone's gonna feel like they've been left out. You know what the answer is?
Gemma Rabbini 32:00
Okay.
Gill Moakes 32:04
I'd love it. I'd love it. Thank you. So you're more than welcome.
Gemma Rabbini 32:07
Thank you for having me.
Unknown Speaker 32:12
I hope you enjoyed this episode, and that getting our heads together this week has filled your mind with what's possible. If you love the show, would you do me a massive favour please? Would you leave a five star rating on Apple podcasts? It would really help you put more heads together, reach more ears and expand more minds. Until next week. Bye for now.
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