Gill Moakes 0:00
Welcome back to the Heads Together podcast. This week, I'm getting my head together with the amazing Lauren Jones. Lauren is the founder and CEO of box creative. She is equal parts artist and scientist. She's trained in pure design and Lauren is completely chomping at the bit to share the power that brand and design can have on the world. She's also one of my beloved business coaching clients. So I am beyond thrilled to have her on the show. And for you to share in her magic.
Gill Moakes 0:45
Welcome, welcome to the Heads Together Podcast. I'm Gill Moakes and I am obsessed with cutting through the noise when it comes to growing your business each week via intimate coaching conversations and inspirational stories. I share what it really takes to get the results you want, in a way that feels right to you. I am all about attracting higher ticket opportunities, building authentic relationships, and creating the abundant full fat version of your dream business. I mean, how many of us have even away creating a light version of what we really want? The thing is, I honestly believe when you're outstanding at what you do, there is no limit to what you can achieve. So are you ready to put our Heads Together and make it happen? Let's go
Gill Moakes 1:47
Lauren, welcome.
Lauren Jones 1:50
Thank you for having me. Gill. Nice to see you.
Gill Moakes 1:53
Oh, my goodness. Thank you for coming on.
Lauren Jones 1:56
Pleasure. Good. I'm so excited.
Gill Moakes 1:57
I mean, it's been ages since we spoke. Indeed. So Lauren is one of my amazing business coaching clients who I just adore working with. So this will be a bit of a loving, you know, it just, you are a pleasure to work with.
Unknown Speaker 2:18
So the feeling's mutual. This is just going to be a chat I'm sure.
Gill Moakes 2:23
Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. So I know all about you but for our audience, tell everyone a bit about yourself or I sounded like Silla Blackmon
Lauren Jones 2:35
What's your name? Where you from?
Gill Moakes 2:37
That will not resonate with everyone across the pond. If it doesn't Google it. That's cultural diamond yeah.
Lauren Jones 2:48
Yeah, absolute legend. So Silla. I'm Lauren Jones. I'm based out in Essex so near your kind self. And I run. I'm the founder and director of box creative limited. Yeah, it started. I started in pure design. But now I run a creative agency. We work with everything from female startups, purpose led organisations through to huge nonprofits and foundations. We really tackle everything around brand branding, design, voice work, and everything to support them to up their game to cut through noise and to stand out in the world. Being an ignorable is my thing. So being an ignorable brand .
Gill Moakes 3:35
I just love that being unignorable. Because that that is it, isn't it? That is that's the purpose of branding. Branding. Yes. Yeah. The global I love it. Just just thinking about that. That's a wide spectrum of clients, potentially, that you work with, what do they tend to all have in common?
Lauren Jones 3:52
Well, I mean, the needs for brands is an overarching sort of concept. It doesn't differ from scale, or industry or vertical. Essentially, you know, if you look at commercial side through to nonprofits, they still have an audience base, they still have shareholders, stakeholders, or boards, and they still have people to answer to this stuff people to appeal to, there's still a product and I'm using inverted brackets that they have to kind of sell or entice people to take action and still action in people we buy a pair of pants or if it's to donate money, or attend an event or to join a rally, whatever it is, there's always a call to action. And so that's where branding and brand step in and create that instil that action and create that emotional connection with people. So for me, what's fun is that it is a broad spectrum and that every day is different. You know, my processes my frameworks are have been honed over the years. And I use the same same methodology for every single client and it just works.
Gill Moakes 5:02
Yeah. Would it be fair to say that, like your clients tend to be quite purpose driven as well, you know, and so there is that common ground across them?
Lauren Jones 5:14
Yes, definitely. I mean, the female businesses I tend to work with, there's a lot in personal development space. I also support a few organisations that work in empowering female entrepreneurs as well. So for example, worked with a fantastic app last year that supports a niche in the market of trade. So plumbers and electricians and carpenters and plasterers, that are females, it's a very small, like 4.7% of the industry. And they've created an app to find those female trades. So it's still a commercial business, but it's very purpose driven, they're getting a lot of traction and support and investment, because it's quite a unique proposition. Yeah, and everything also down to women who are setting up organisations that are really specialised in Dei. So diversity, equity and inclusion consulting, which is should be ingrained in every organisation now. And so everything through to people that do serve therapy in Costa Rica to support women who are business leaders and, and everything in between. So it's it's great.
Gill Moakes 6:19
Therapy. Amazing.
Lauren Jones 6:23
Yeah, well, we can learn from the ocean. And yeah, discipline and balance and all sorts. So it's, there's some fantastic entrepreneurial women out there doing great work, that is really adding not just to the economy, but to to women as enlarge, enlarge, so it's great to work with them. I feel very honoured with my client base.
Gill Moakes 6:45
I would imagine that makes what you do incredibly fulfilling. Why this business? What is it that appealed to you about coming into this area?
Lauren Jones 6:57
Yeah, I mean, as I said, I came from pure design background, I was in a workshop and making things and crafting and creating and, and I landed a role in interiors in a brand agency. And that was my first I was I was very wet behind the ears, I was just out of graduation and things. And it was my first introduction to this word called brand and branding and brand experience, and questioning audiences and things like that. And it was all very, very new to me, I was so intrigued in particular about the brand culture piece and how we could go from talking to clients around what they wanted their business to do. And I my role was to create that as a physical environment interiors, exercise. And it was just very, that process of taking this sort of high level concept and turning into something very tangible and working with the graphics team. And then there was a digital team and, and then the experience team, and then the environment. So it just felt so holistic. And it makes a lot of sense to me, it really interested me and I didn't necessarily want to be just doing one bit of that. Yeah, huzzle, the story, the journey for the for the customer. And that really kind of sparked my love affair. And then over the years, I went back actually went back to study got a master's in foreign strategy and design management, because a lot of stuff I was doing was very intuitive. And I wanted to back it up with some actual methods and learn about people that have done this already. And the experts in the field. And it's, it's kind of grown grown from there, really. So my experience in pure design and that level of understanding the production and what's involved in creating something, be it in a workshop, be it on a computer, be it an environment, whatever it is, has really put me in good stead to building basically building businesses and building brands for people and understanding that whole story. So yeah, it's, it's been quite a nice evolution for me.
Gill Moakes 8:57
So I think what's interesting is that mirroring of your journey, the your approach to working with clients in terms of their brand, focusing slightly differently, depending on where they are on their journey, talking real basics for you. And I'm sure you get asked this all the time, but what is brand, if you have to really give us the essence of your brand?
Lauren Jones 9:21
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. So there's a couple of definitions that I always draw on. And it's a really great question, and I think it's largely misunderstood. Brand is the Marty Neumeier, who's my mentor, and absolute brand hero in your decades of experience. He describes it as the gut response that you have to a business or a company organisation. So it's a very emotional reaction. It's that, that gut feeling that you have towards it. So a Jeff Bezos describes it slightly differently in saying it's what people say about you when you leave the room. Basically, it's there what are people talking about you? What's that reputation. And I would say it's largely the reputation that precedes you. And that leaves you that sits in the hearts and the minds of the customer. And so largely, you can't really dictate, you can't tell someone I can't tell you, Jill, this is what the brand of box creative is, you gather that information from your experience of me and our services. And you create that own experience of what that brand means to you, in your heart and mind and in your gut. And so as a business, that's really important to know, because you can't dictate it, but you can curate it, you can actually be intentional, by consistently showing up by having the same messaging. By having clarity on that, by having professional buttoned up branding at every single point by looking united front, by constantly reassuring and showing up professionally and consistently. I have a Mary Poppins thing persistent and consistent in every way. That's what branding should be about. That's how you build a brand. It's my Mary Poppins approach. Because it's important, it you know, that's the unsexy side, but you have to guard your brand you have to go out. And once you have that concept, yes, it's flexing, it grows, and it changes and adapts, because everything else around it does too. But in order to gain that trust with people and build that brand takes time. And so that's, that's the kind of the concept of brand. And but most people think that brand is branding, which is an active thing of branding, like marketing, advertising, their activations, they are taking this concept and taking it to market. So the branding is the visual and verbal side. So it's the messaging, it's the logos, it's the colours, the fonts, the website activations, the advertising is, you know, your reach to marketing channels where you show up and how you activate the law or entice your audience. They're very active things. And it's just, it's just separating the two. You know, we focus on building the brand story first, and the marketing and branding stuff comes off the back of that. Now I know people, some people out there would argue otherwise. And I don't want to get into that branding versus marketing argument. Because you go on LinkedIn, and it's everywhere. And it's boring. They sit side by side, they both need each other. They both have very different roles. But they do get blended sometimes, which is just a confusion.
Gill Moakes 12:27
Yeah, I agree. I think they are completely different things. But they do their their neighbours, their neighbours, not the not one being?
Lauren Jones 12:37
No, absolutely. And I think that that understanding and experience of branding, or marketing, or advertising into brand, that's what evolves as you grow in your business, because you start to see that you go up in layers of kind of the appreciation of what these layers of a brand and the higher value of that concept means to you or to your organisation, to your team, to your partners. So that's what I love is that you can start with a startup, if there's an naivety there in terms of I need, but first we'll find out how to do it. Like there's a lot of how to so how do I register a business? How do I create a logo? How do I build a website? How do I register a company like all these questions, and there's lots of resources out there that can support you. And there's like, I mean, there's tonnes of stuff out there that and tools that can help you get there. And also support networks. I mean, I run a network called Girls that get shit done, which is for people in the industry, females in the industry that are either looking to go freelance or they're running their business, and we just support each other in every way that we can. And there's a lot out there to help you with those first few steps. Or even indeed, if you're already entrenched in the industry.
Gill Moakes 13:53
Yeah. And girls that should get shit done. Actually, we'll put a link to that community in the show notes. For anyone who's listening, please. This it's a great community. It's very engaged and active. It's one of the I would I feel like and it's not on Facebook, we should be way it's not a Facebook group. This is a community. It is. It's one of those really genuine ones where it's got actually got real nice people in it really could talk to each other and help each other. Yeah, absolutely. Just like nice people that get shit done. Both of us have a similar mantra when it comes to business, which is quite simple, which is just don't be don't be a dick. That'd be kind of works. It does. It's a really simple rule. Yeah, he really works every time. Yes. So if that's of interest, I will put that into the show notes.
Lauren Jones 14:50
Yeah, I will say it's free and it's on mighty networks. And we meet every week for coffee.
Gill Moakes 14:54
Yeah, exactly. Yeah, it's informal, isn't it? Coffee Chat. Really, but it's it It's a great resource for help. Yeah, reach out, like you're saying, when you're in that startup phase, where everything's a question, how do I do it? How do I had one create a logo? How do I do this? How do I do that? And I think communities like yours are so important at that phase of business, because it can be a lonely journey.
Lauren Jones 15:23
It's a lonely journey throughout, I'd actually say if you're a business leader, it really is your right. And just as even just as, we're not just there's no just about it. If you're a freelancer, too, it's you're still running your own little empire, it's still you're still in charge of very destiny. And there's, they're still the same questions I had on market myself, do I? How do I present my portfolio? What, what, what clients do I want to attract? Like all the same questions, it's, and it's all comes down to brand too. So that's the kind of tentative beginning stage and I think that, you know, the next evolution is when you take that first step, and you go, either it's and I hate the phrase side hustle. But if it's a side project, and you're kind of venturing into it and testing the waters, and maybe the next stage is startup where it's about stuff, then you need stuff, you need a message, you need a product you need. By and large, everyone needs a website, you need some sort of visual identity. And you need the offer. And, and I think that sometimes they miss a trick there by just taking a beat and asking some of the questions that they think are beyond them at that stage in terms of really understanding that audience, trying to get a vision statement and a purpose statement or a mission, whatever is suitable for you. And however you want to word it that you know, lots of people, you have slightly different wording for those statements, and also values, things like that, like what do you really care about as an organisation? Why would someone pick you over somebody else, and those things that lots of people think are quite fluffy, actually can be very, very a real asset to the organisation. They can be differentiated while they're largely differentiating, and they can, they can really help with people picking you, B talent, or partners or investors over somebody else that has got the same product and service. So I think that taking a beat and investing bit of time in that right at the beginning really helps rather than just jumping straight into I just needed a website, which I can't tell you how many times I've heard that in my life. I just need a logo. Oh, I just need a website.
Gill Moakes 17:36
I think it's it's a bit like, and this happens in kind of the back end of the business as well. I think it's really similar problem here with with startups, particularly where people feel like they're over egging the pudding and go too deep into brand foundations. Similar, you know, when I suggest to people who are starting a business, you know, start as you mean to go on and start creating SOP standard operating procedures, and they'll say what, but it's just me. Yes. And, and my reply to that will be Yeah, and until you do, it will only be because it will be so difficult to get anyone else in to help. So I think there's quite a parallel there with that. I think people think people almost feel like it's too over the top to go that deep into the background of their brand, or that foundational work around their mission and, and their purpose and that kind of thing. But it really isn't, is it? In fact, it's the perfect time to start, right?
Lauren Jones 18:41
Absolutely. I mean, I I'm not a huge Jeff Bezos fan, I don't know why I'm spouting him again. But he said, I'm sure it was him that said, what you do on day one of your business affects what you do in year 10. And I think that that's a really valuable piece of advice that how you step out, sets, this sets the bar as its intention for the trajectory of your business. And I can be testament to that, you know, I I set out in my business, and I didn't want to not to appeal to anyone. I was like, I need work. I want clients, I'm not going to discriminate against anyone. I didn't Nish and as a result, really, you could see my branding, it was pretty blur. And it was very, it wasn't exciting, wasn't enticing. It was very safe. And I look back at it now and go Oh, my God, what was a bloody thinking? You know, because I was there was a confident that it was safe. And it was not there was no confidence behind it because equally that's where I was. And so over the years, I've stepped more and more into a niche, which again is sort of we can talk about in a bit when you grow your business that really the value of that and then taking everything around it. So the tone of voice the grounding the offerings. And really going deep into that and having full confidence that no, this is what I'm about this is who I'm for understanding equally this is I'm not for and that's absolutely fine. And, and stepping into it and what has happened once I made that change, and that for me was kind of de mais first step into mark two of the business is it's completely now like three years later, a different business, a different feel different clients, I have you, I would never have had a coach or thought I needed a coach. You know, we have a team, and we have amazing clients that are coming in. And it was making that that step, which is a bit of a tentative step, it's that pizza to, to cut things out of the offering or to be nation to us to be very focused, can be scary for people because you think you're going to say no to business, but it does the opposite. It says yes to lots more business with the right business. So yeah, I think there's never there's never a wrong time. There's, there's always a right time to should I say to invest in those brand foundations.
Gill Moakes 21:11
Absolutely. I just couldn't agree more. And I think you just touched on really, I suppose what segues nicely into that next phase after startup, which is that realisation that you're not for everyone. Yeah, you're not.
Lauren Jones 21:26
And that's okay.
Gill Moakes 21:29
And it's okay. In fact, it's absolutely as it should be. Yes. Because there will be someone that is for them. And that's who they should be working with. Yeah. Absolute buying from or learning from? Yeah.
Lauren Jones 21:41
Yeah, there's a sea of people out there offering the same services offering the same products that you do. It's same for me, same for you. And the only way to really get to the audience that's right for you is just to scream at them, like have one person in mind and just every bit of content, every bit of writing every visual you create. It's like it's for her, it's for him, it's for them. And being really very intentional about that means it's going to scream at them. They'll see themselves in that rather than a sea of maybe it's them. And we're for everyone. And you know, it just doesn't work. It just really doesn't anymore.
Gill Moakes 22:31
Yeah, it's been on explorable. Yes. Yeah. To the right people. Yeah, it. Yeah. Yeah. And it's anti generic. It's, it's almost like it yes, it's having that courage to make a stand for something. Yes, you know, just sticking that stake in the ground and saying, Oh, this is who I'm for? Yes. And loudly and proudly.
Lauren Jones 22:55
Yeah, absolutely. And make sure everything else that follows through. But the one thing I would say with that is it has to be authentic. And I know it's another bloody buzzword. But it has to be true, has to be completely true to you. I was doing a workshop yesterday. And we were talking about personal brand, with nonprofit leaders. And we were saying that they said they struggled to separate themselves from the organisation because often they've started it and it's so entrenched in them. And when you find your voice, everything becomes so much easier, because it's authentically yours, you don't have to think about it, you don't have to pretend you don't have to hide behind jargon. And like, layer it with buzzwords and and stuff or, you know, overly technical information that you just talk human to human because you there is an authenticity to it. And that's the same for businesses the same for brands to is when you get that confidence to be what it is and have that clarity. That's when things really start to change.
Gill Moakes 24:03
Yeah, you're so right, you know what, I think? Tell me if you agree with it, but I can spot a mile off a contrived opinion. So in other words, you know, I can tell when someone has literally sat there and thought, Okay, I need to make a stand for something I need to stand up and I need to be I need to have this persona. And I can just spot it a mile away when it's just been completely contrived and constructed to tick a marketing requirement box or branding requirement box. And it just for me, it just doesn't work. So I think that authenticity is non negotiable. And it's a buzzword for a reason. Because so bloody important.
Lauren Jones 24:54
Yeah, it's true. It is true. And I would always ask yourself, if you're putting content out post out captions, whatever it is, if you read it back, and there's an IQ, but try and look at it very objectively, and if there's any anything like that, then just just skip it, there is far more valuable to have less, less stuff out there less content, less shit for people to kind of troll through and and scroll through. That's more quality, more authentic and more suitable for the audience and more value for them. I mean, they're only going to read it or engage with it, if it's valuable for them. If it's just a load of crap, then just skip it, just don't even worry about it. But again, the more confident you get with stepping into your the voice and the brand and authentically, then that gets less and less.
Gill Moakes 25:49
Yeah, absolutely. Before I post anything on social media, or in an email or anything I run it through, or is this actually what I think? Because I think, you know, we consume as business owners we consume so much. And I think we do absorb other people's opinions. And there can sometimes be a tendency, especially if you are feel if your ideas are feeling a little depleted, and you're trying to, you know, create some content, there can be this tendency to regurgitate stuff that you absorbed, and often it's unintentional. So I think just stopping and running it through that authenticity filter, like, Is this really me? Is this actually what I think? Yeah. Is this something I've absorbed?
Lauren Jones 26:35
Yeah. And you know, there is a lot of stuff out there, and we can get lost in it so easy, you know, if you're in that startup phase, but indeed, as you keep going, as business owners through tend to keep learning. And I think that there's having some synthesis of all the stuff and creating it as your own is, that's where the key is, especially, you know, we build our own frameworks or our own methodologies. It's taking the learnings and making them your own, because who's to say any one of them's particularly right, they will write in their own way, but that's not yours. So. But that I mean, that takes time as well, I would say it can be refined. And I think there's no shame in also admitting when things aren't working in that growth phase, is a really good time, maybe it's five years into the business, if you're a fast growing business, maybe it's even two years, it could be 10. If it's a slightly slower burn, or I don't think it'd be 10 is to stop and check. And it's that kind of self check that you're talking about, is this authentic to us? Is this actually where we want the business to be going? Is this attracting the right talent and the right customers is what's working what's not. And so in that growth phase, you find that there's, there's tends to be this kind of reflection, refresh, refine stage, where things get tweaked, whether it's official identity, or some messaging, internally, there might be some start to systemize things and to get that consistency, and there's kind of levelling up on everything that's, that's supporting the brand as well. And that's what you've, that's where you tend to find tweaks that are made, and you kind of stepped into big girls pants, it's like next phase growth, like, we've got all this experience, we've got all these learnings. I understand now more where I sit where my position is in the market, and kind of going deeper into that.
Gill Moakes 28:29
Would you say? The, is it the brand that's evolving? As you as your business grows? Or is the brand more of a North Star and it's the branding, the doing of it, that that tends to evolve?
Lauren Jones 28:45
And I would, I would really say that the brand constantly needs to evolve. I mean, it's not, it's not sitting still in, nothing sits still. And so it's really important that it's constantly checking in on itself and adapting. There's just so many factors, particularly around audience mentalities, motivations, perceptions, you know, it's changing quicker and quicker all the time. What routes to market there are, how do you engage on them, the level of the tiniest bit of time you have to engage with them is just getting shorter and shorter and shorter, you know, you just don't have time to catch their attention. And so there needs to be a longer term view. And, you know, we always say that the vision of the business is the North Star, it's where we're heading. But the brand that sits at the heart of that there's a long term view in terms of what this thing is there to do, why it exists, what's the purpose of it, however, it needs to adapt and change with technology, with behaviours, with political and you know, socio economic status, all these things that create change in your audience and what they need from you. You can't see It still. And so I think that, you know, the, again, the branding and the marketing advertising is that easy to fix it easy in inverted brackets is the is the stuff that's most agile around it to change. I mean, I've worked with a big, big, big organisation last week. Up in London, we've been working for six months, huge, big billion dollar global company that they have sat still for so long. And they are still top of their game, but they're scared by the newbies coming in and nipping at their toes. And quite right, because they are appealing to a new audience. They have fresh products, they have completely different tonality and are hitting lots of marks with a younger generation that they just can't compete with. And so we were trying to trying to get this behemoth to think more like an entrepreneur like a startup and be agile and to think more innovatively, and to take down the fear of knocking down the house and rebuilding it. And that takes an awful lot. And so I think as you're, as you're in that growth phase, that's when you should be trying different things and being agile with it and not being too scared. Because when you get to be in the behemoth if you ever get there, if that's what you want, and some people don't, that's fine. It's much harder to make those changes fundamentally. Yeah, the bigger the ship, the longer it takes to take. Exactly, exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And there's a lot of cultural issues with that. Actually, I would say that brand culture is very important that stage.
Gill Moakes 31:36
Ah now that's interesting. The brand culture is the thing that does come in later, doesn't it that doesn't come in necessarily at the startup phase in the same way as it does, as it has more importance in the growth phase, I guess.
Lauren Jones 31:52
Yeah, I think. And at scale, definitely, I think that there are the newer, you know, New Kids on the Block are probably understanding that building brand culture from day one is very important. What you find with this slightly older organisations is it's something that's just organically happened over time. And there'll be a culture in the organisation, that's kind of just happened. And that's very, that can be quite toxic and quite difficult to shift. Sometimes it's very positive, but an unintentional and it's just been about it comes from leadership bracket rolls downhill. So if you've got great leadership than you'd think you'd have great culture, not always the case. But the brand culture conversation, you know, it does stem from those values, it does stems to the systems, it does seem to very unsexy stuff like the ops and how things are done, and how easy is for people to do their jobs, how you in and enable people to live on their values day in day out, and supporting them in that as well. And, you know, having that bigger vision in mind them being aligned to it and understanding it, and the communication, all of these things, create that brand culture. And so if that's, again, very difficult to shoehorn back, but not impossible to address. And also, I think it's really important that you have business leaders that are really willing to see what's the reality. So sometimes, if you do qualitative research, in an organisation, which we always do, and we do intakes with teams, you know, we'll get someone from finance and marketing and the tech team, and whatever you'll have, you'll have a really great well rounded view of what that organisation is from the inside. And then you speak to the CEO, and they have a completely different vision or view of what things are. And so it's just trying to bridge that gap is very sensitive. But it's really important because ultimately, you've got someone with their head up leaving the business, and if they're completely out of touch with actually what's going on, then you're in trouble.
Gill Moakes 34:01
So with that in mind, you know, just thinking about the things that maybe don't go as well as they could be when it comes to building a brand. What mistakes do you see happening over and over, you know, at those different phases, that startup phase, that growth phase, and then that skill phase? What do you see? Coming up time and time again.
Lauren Jones 34:22
From the beginning, I mean, probably from every phase, it's going straight to execution. So from startup, it's, it's that jumping straight into stuff that we talked about. So I use a framework called the double diamond from the Design Council. And basically it's two double diamonds that have two expansive pieces and two convergent pieces. And it's the discovery you have to have open up your eyes. Just look around you look at competitors what's happening in tech, what's happening in the on the landscape that my organization's in? What's happening with my audiences, what's their behaviour his perceptions, and then you take all that insights, together with what your intentions are as an organisation, and then you go, right go, Okay, this is what it means for us. And it's, that's when you create like the brief that's like, Okay, we understand this is our landscape. This is what we're about. Now what now we have to design the brand, we have to design, what we were about in that packet, you know, our packages or our services, our offerings. And that's when you go board again, it's like, okay, it could look like this, it could sound like this, it could talk like walk like this, we could have an experience that feels like this. And then when you deliver, that's gonna conversion again. And that's like when you go, Okay, this is our, this is our logo. This is our key messaging. This is our positioning. This is our tone of voice. And that's when you get very crystallised with it. But what you tend to find is people at the beginning with the idea, they skip the discovery piece, they skip the definition piece and the brief, they skip that design, exploration and testing and that beautiful, juicy, messy stuff that I love. And they go straight to delivery. And that is extremely costly. In the long term. In the short term, it's not in I would say in the short term, it is an investment of time and money and energy. But in the long term, it's not going to serve you well. So I think there is a process to get to a great brand result, and some people want to shortcut it. And I think that that's a huge error that people make time and time again, and that doesn't really skip any of those growth phases. It's just people do.
Gill Moakes 36:34
It's just that's the fundamental error is people want to speed up the process to get to that end result. Yes, without doing the right thing, in the right order. Yeah, yeah.
Lauren Jones 36:47
And I think as you grow, if things aren't working, then people will throw money at the doing, they'll throw money at advertising, at marketing, at the branding. And that's an hour, we'll be honest, I've seen it time and time again, that marketing will have their head on the block all the time, there'll be blamed for it, we're actually what would be prevalent to do as a leader of the organisation is to step back and go, what are our brand foundations? Are they working for us? Are we still on track? Are we still relevant, which is a really key word when when you're talking about brand? Are we actually still speaking to the, to the right audience in the right way, getting them at the right time? Are we compelling? Are we you know, concider, all these things, and they won't, they're sometimes too scared to step back and go back to those foundations, because again, it's the biggest ship, it's harder to turn. But sometimes, the issues that show up in delivery or in the results in the sales, can they're not just executional problems, they can be very foundational. And it could be about tweaking things internally, it could be getting better communication clarity for the team. There's all sorts of brand, brand conversations to be had. And the other thing is at scale, where people can make errors is just growing without intention, or without some sort of idea of why they're growing into certain ways. So brand extensions, sub companies, whatever it is, having some idea. So from an architectural point of view, and the architecture isn't portfolio structure, it's not organisational structure. It's how you join the dots with all of the insights from your consumers, from your offerings from your strengths or organisation from all the context of what's happening around joining the dots on those and making sense of how you grow and architects, the organisation is really, really key and some people don't have intention with that. They'll either say yes to opportunities or, and then try and make sense of it retrospectively. But you can again, be intentional with that. So I do find that with bigger organisations, we do too, we do a lot of brand architecture, exercises, and sometimes it's trying to make sense of of what they've done and how they've grown and where there needs to be some adjustment. And sometimes it's making some tough decisions in terms of you know, is this right? Or do we need to set up a whole other company structure for this because this just doesn't fit in in the brand that you have now, which is probably where there's an error issue too.
Gill Moakes 39:37
You find that you get clients coming to you saying that we need to rebrand. And it because I have seen before where companies I think it's it's a little bit about what you mentioned just now in terms of if something's not working, so if they feel their marketing is not working or they have Got the sales at the level they want them at etcetera. But we need to rebrand. And I, I have seen a few times now where people have invested chunks of money in what they think is a rebrand, it's actually just changing some colours and logos and aesthetics. And for me nine times out of 10 If your marketing and your sales are underperforming is because of generally one thing, and that's your messaging. That tends to be the primary driver for whether your marketing will or won't work.
Lauren Jones 40:40
That's why copywriters are so valuable. That's why I have a great one.
Gill Moakes 40:47
Absolutley right. Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely is.
Lauren Jones 40:53
It's a really, it's like baby and bathwater, right? It's understanding where the errors are. And I would make a distinction with that, and maybe it's just me splitting hairs. But I distinguish between a refresh and a rebrand. And I think that a lot of people.
Gill Moakes 41:09
What is the difference between those?
Lauren Jones 41:12
Yeah, so I was good point. Yeah, I mean, because because what you're saying is that most people go, this isn't working, we have to rebrand and check everything out. And, you know, and that's what I mean with that knocking the house down and rebuilding it. That, to me is a rebrand, that's a huge lift. That's that internally that can cause a lot of uncertainty and disruption with the team, there's a lot of change management needs to be kind of considered, it can also be very energising if it's managed properly in the team, and not just like we're the C suite, we're going to deal with it, you know, if you if you're inclusive in that process, even if it's just free communications, it can be very energising for the team. But that is, right, we're gonna go back to our values, we're gonna go back to our purpose statement. And even if they're not changed, it's just reaffirming is going back and checking, doing the research, doing that discovery piece. And just make sense checking that actually, our I call them brand routes are the brand foundations are solid. And making tweaks, tweaks and adjustments as you go, that may work usually does end up with new copy or new branding. But it really is about knocking the house down and starting again. Sometimes I say that's necessary, it is quite a big ask him to can take quite a long time, I've been working with a client now, just over a year to do that big company. And we're still not launched yet, it's still about a month away. So and that's just the start of it, I would say there's just like a whole slew of stuff that's to come after that. But it's important is very important, because actually it was someone was brave, I the CEO was brave and go if we're going to be future facing we need to do this. Then there's the other side, which is the refresh. And now I would say that's about Ilica, pain, new furniture, stripping off that shitty wallpaper and having you know, something gorgeous on the wall, like sprucing up the garden, getting new Vendrick. But it's it's tweaking things. So it's maybe it's a new logo, maybe it's new identity system, tweaking colours, messaging, new channels to market, try new things on social, it could be a refresh of how you're doing things now as you are rather than completely changing the whole thing. And I think that some people in organisations get scared because they think they have to do everything. Whereas actually sometimes to your point, it could just be a simple tweak of messaging or finding a new market or finding a new distribution network that can really change things turn things around.
Gill Moakes 43:49
So just thinking in terms of the work you're doing. So amazingly, with your clients, if someone listening has a business, they they've built a brand. They feel like it is there's a problem with how their business is running at the moment in terms of the performance isn't where they want it to be. And they have a feeling that something needs refreshing something needs tweaking, is that something they can come to you and articulate that and you can give them your perspective? And you know, is that the kind of thing they can come and work with Box?
Lauren Jones 44:27
Oh, yes. Yes. Again, as long as they're not dead. I just remember. My one role. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I, you know, I do appeal to certain type of organisation and I love working with particular business leaders and nonprofits and foundation leaders and teams. But yes, that is absolutely something that we can talk about. I offer consulting services as well as the full blown sort of, I call it the brand greenhouse which is To end to end to kind of getting your up to your starter kit. But beyond the reach of brand building starter kit, they offer consulting services as well, which, again, it's that's down to the business leader or the person I'm speaking to they, they set the agenda, we have expertise in so many areas that we can bring in to support them with whatever problems they're having. And sometimes it's just articulating where that source issue is because, like you say, that the symptoms can show up somewhere, where that's actually not the problem. So, right, well, we can talk yeah, by all means, reach out and have it, we can have a chat about it, the misconception of what brand means mean, sometimes they, they'll be surprised with what the process can offer them. And I've been working with an organisation recently, and she said, when we started this exercise, I had no idea that this is what brand meant, that talking, really getting under the skin of the founder, or the history or the intention of the organisation. You know, we went real deep dive into the team and the trustees and everything. And turning it into a really beautiful compelling story and design and offering and concept of what this this new brand was going to be. It really surprised her as the executive director, she was like, I just didn't know that this is what brand was, you know, and, and I think, again, that's the evolving understanding of the power that brand can happen in organisation. And I'm, I'm here for it with bells on.
Gill Moakes 46:43
You know, as she was saying that, I think, working with you, and with other branding people in my world in my connections, it has been a massive eye opener to me to I didn't think I really understood properly, what brand was so and I kind of, you know, my area of expertise is is business, it's understanding business. So I think it's, I believe it's really common that people don't understand what brand is not fully, and what it can do for their business. Yeah, absolutely. What a fully matured, fully formed and expressed brand can do.
Lauren Jones 47:28
Yeah, yeah, definitely, definitely. I mean, it's empowering gives you confidence. And you're, you're kind of in the know, I wouldn't say you're in the driving seat, but there's an element of control over things that it reduces fear. And anxiety can give a real sense of clarity.
Gill Moakes 47:47
It also reduces the number of decisions you have to make. And as a leader, I think sometimes decision fatigue is real. Like, it can be exhausting having to make what feel like a lot of important decisions all the time every day when it comes to, you know, how you market your business, who you want to work with, you know, what's the best way to get sales? All of those things, I think are really strong brand routes, as you call them strong round routes. It reduces the number of decisions, because suddenly you have so much clarity around exactly what your business is, what it stands for and who it serves. That things you would have agonised over making decisions on a crystal clear. It's like, well, it doesn't make sense for us to have to make it doesn't make sense. Right? Exactly. Yeah, it didn't feel tough. It simplifies business.
Lauren Jones 48:45
Yeah, it makes you much more agile it makes it is a filter. It's the ship filter. It's like no, this isn't for us. That's not for us. This is definitely for us. It does help you with decision making, what to do and what not to do is is equally important, and that you say when there's so many things to consider any anything that supports with getting clarity on decision making is valuable. And then the other thing I'd say is it's important is that can often be a little bit of a battle as well. We have branding versus marketing and we have business versus brand strategy. They aren't competing again they are neighbours they have one cannot exist without the other. I might argue that brand strategy can inform business strategy, but that's just my opinion, because that's the world I come from, but certainly the business.
Gill Moakes 49:40
I completely agree and I obviously fit more in the business strategy camp, but I would agree brand strategy absolutely should inform your strategy.
Unknown Speaker 49:51
Yeah, I think that it's vital that people shift their perceptions that brand branding is just up out the stuff that comes in at the end when decisions are being made. And that they can, it can be a real powerhouse to make better decisions have greater value. In the long end, it's a long term. It's a long term strategy to outmanoeuvre the competitors. That's an RT another Marty Neumeier ism. That is, what brand can help you do. Yeah.
Gill Moakes 50:23
Yeah. Amazing. Lauren, how can people listening reach out to you? How can they find out more about working with you? Well, I have a website. Can you believe? I do. It's a Box. Next, you're gonna send me it's an incredibly beautiful, amazing to look at website. Fantastic messaging.
Lauren Jones 50:44
I've looked at it for so long, I can't see any more objectively, someone can tell me if it is or not. It is, it is box hyphen, creative.co.uk. And I'm on LinkedIn to search Lauren Jones and books creative. And I'm around and, you know, fairly active on there. So yeah, there's, you know, there's a lot on there for people to kind of noodle on. There's some fun stuff, too, on my website, but reach out on there. As I say, I do have also a brand routes course, which is the kind of the foundational stuff, which I'm happy to give to people, if you want to more of a DIY approach. If you're in that, how do I What does it look like kind of phase? Just contact me and I'll gift you that?
Gill Moakes 51:28
Oh, my goodness, that's amazing. Can we put a link to that in the show notes? I think people will definitely want to take you up on that. So that would be great.
Lauren Jones 51:35
Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So you know, as I say, I'm open to hearing from anyone. I'm here to champion women doing great work and nonprofits changing the world. And it's, you know, any part a tiny part I can play in the great work that they do. I'm all for it.
Gill Moakes 51:57
And you're so good at it now.
Lauren Jones 51:58
Bless you. Thank you.
Gill Moakes 52:01
Lauren, thank you so much for today, and I'll speak to you soon. Yeah,
Lauren Jones 52:06
thank you so much for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure.
Gill Moakes 52:09
Bye for now. I hope you enjoyed this episode, and that getting our heads together this week has filled your mind with what's possible. If you love the show, would you do me a massive favour please? Would you leave a five star rating on Apple podcasts? It would really help you put more heads together, reach more ears and expand more minds. Until next week. Bye for now.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
