Gill Moakes (00:00.958)
Hey Rosalie, welcome to Heads Together, thanks for joining me.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (00:06.066)
Good morning, it's a pleasure to be here.
Gill Moakes (00:09.15)
It's my pleasure to have you. I've been really looking forward to this because we spoke a little while ago, didn't we? And yes, and I mean, your story is so interesting. And I can't wait to share this really. We met at the women's chapter and I've had some really lovely conversations come from that. So I must give a shout out to the women's chapter because such a lovely group, isn't it?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (00:11.09)
I'm going to go ahead and close the video.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (00:15.762)
We did.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (00:33.202)
So many phenomenal women making change. It's just, it's really humbling.
Gill Moakes (00:38.206)
Right, it really is, it really is, yeah, and you're absolutely one of them. I wonder if we could kick off with you perhaps giving the listeners a bit of a background of who you are.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (00:53.202)
Sure, so I'm a psychologist by profession, but really I guess most of what I do I think was shaped early on in my life. So I come from a family of real changemakers. My mum could be described as a force of nature. She's...
Gill Moakes (00:58.59)
Mm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (01:14.674)
taught me the value of service to others, of fairness and equality. She does a lot of fundraising and at 77 she's just completed her second masters. So absolutely at 77, so embodies that ideal of lifelong learning.
Gill Moakes (01:25.406)
Wow at 77.
Gill Moakes (01:34.078)
I'm in awe. That's amazing. Congrats to her.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (01:35.826)
I'm so proud of her. Absolutely. So I think the bibliography was the most challenging bit on the last dissertation, but she's absolutely sort of embraced that growth mindset. My father is an entrepreneur and was very disruptive in the broadcast industry. And so both of them have really inspired me to live a life.
Gill Moakes (02:00.476)
Right.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (02:04.21)
that's extraordinary to follow your passions, to follow your dreams and to make change. And then if I look back a generation, my grandfather was one of the architects of the NHS. So one of those people that sat in a room and said, actually, healthcare should be free at the point of access for everyone. And that's been massively influential in my outlook and the businesses that I've shaped as well.
Gill Moakes (02:32.05)
huge. So I mean, it's something that I think goes up and down in public perception, doesn't it? The NHS, but that initial concept of healthcare should be free. And I know I have lots of clients across the pond in the States who, you know, are really just in awe of, of what we have here in the UK. So to have been one of the people in, you know, in the room in you're making that decision or, you know,
Rosalie Millard-Evans (02:40.89)
Yes, yes.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (02:49.138)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (03:01.702)
Contributing to that decision is amazing. What a legacy.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (03:04.914)
Yeah and I think those values of equality and fairness are something that have really I've embodied through my life and career as well.
Gill Moakes (03:14.494)
I knew there was a reason we got on so well. Because I just literally, there is something in me that injustice is probably the one thing that will, it makes, it can make me feel physically sick. I can't bear it. I just can't bear it. So yeah, I hear you on that.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (03:16.658)
Heheheheh
Rosalie Millard-Evans (03:25.104)
push your buttons.
Gill Moakes (03:40.006)
Hmm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (03:40.21)
So what else do you want to know? Other things that have shaped me. So.
Gill Moakes (03:44.19)
Yeah, so tell us about... Lena, go back and just delete that. And by the way, if you want to stop or anything or do anything over, you could just talk to Lena, my podcast editor, who for some reason, I always feel the need to lean over like this and say, Lena, hello. Lena.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (03:48.146)
Thank you.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (03:54.034)
Okay.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (04:00.05)
Lena, Lena, just edit out my awkward pause. I was just going to mention my dyslexia as well, because I think that's really important.
Gill Moakes (04:07.966)
Oh yeah, let's get that in as well. So I'll pick up again. So you really do come from a background of kind of disruptive thinkers, I guess, people who are willing to go against the grain, against the normal expectations of 2 .5 children and a semi.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (04:28.242)
Yeah, and get excited by that, you know, I find it motivating and exciting.
Gill Moakes (04:30.716)
Yes!
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And so, so I'm guessing that that background meant that an office space nine to five kind of run of the mill job was never going to be on the cards for you.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (04:49.006)
It's never going to happen. I mean, I have done my fresh hair in consultancies and in -house, but no, I felt like I was born to be an entrepreneur. I was an entrepreneur by birth. I also have quite severe dyslexia. So, you know, my mum and dad were told that I'd never learned to read and write when I was seven.
Gill Moakes (05:03.036)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (05:07.006)
Do you?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (05:13.554)
And actually, if we're thinking about things that shape my life, the dyslexia has massively as well, because it's made me a problem solver and I see things differently and it's made me resilient and tenacious in getting things done. And now I see my son, who's 10, has dyslexia and, you know, he struggles in the school system, but I keep saying to him, it's all right, what's difficult for you now will be the thing that makes you.
Gill Moakes (05:28.702)
Mmm. Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (05:43.26)
I've been made my bislexia, it's not been a barrier for me, it's enabled me.
Gill Moakes (05:43.612)
Wow.
Gill Moakes (05:49.79)
Yeah, tell me more about that. So when you say like, it's enabled you, is that because it kind of became something that forced you to rise to challenges and...
Rosalie Millard-Evans (06:03.154)
Yeah, it does. And also I just, I see the world differently. So I see endless possibilities. I see, I see problems or solutions where other people don't see them. I'm a massive optimist because of my dyslexia. I always believe that there's a way to get things done or to solve the problem. There's always another way of doing things. You don't have to do things the way everybody else is. You don't have to fit the mold. You can find your own way.
Gill Moakes (06:15.166)
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (06:31.356)
And I guess that's what entrepreneurs need to keep them focused and keep them driven a lot of the time.
Gill Moakes (06:31.646)
I love that.
Gill Moakes (06:38.076)
you're right. I think finding our own way and doing things our own way is probably the only path to success for entrepreneurs. I think that's where so many entrepreneurs fail is when they are desperately trying to create a carbon copy of what has worked for someone else. And that always seems to be a recipe for disaster. We have to find our own way.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (07:01.65)
Yeah, and you find people that dyslexia often have great creativity. And that can be a real strength. And actually, despite kind of popular belief, communication, persuasion and influence is a really key skill of dyslexics as well. They might not be able to write it down or read it out to you, but they can, they can talk and chat and influence and empathize and understand. And that's kind of like one of... Yeah.
Gill Moakes (07:06.534)
Hmm.
Gill Moakes (07:20.412)
Uhhh...
Gill Moakes (07:26.11)
Because they need to have that skill, don't they? Yeah, okay, that makes sense.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (07:30.028)
Absolutely, because you can't do the written words so well, you do have to learn to be able to articulate yourself and that be kind of your superpower.
Gill Moakes (07:40.926)
So how did so entrepreneurship absolutely in your blood, it was always what you were gonna do. So how did, what was your first sort of venture into that arena?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (07:52.05)
Well, I say I'm I qualified as a chartered psychologist so I did an undergrad in psychology and a master's in organization and occupational psychology Which basically means you end up working in businesses doing assessments large -scale assessment centers training programs leadership programs
building lots of competency frameworks. If you've ever had the joy of being interviewed for a job, you've probably been asked to meet certain competencies, or also after the psychologists that are there working out what those behaviors and competencies should be for an organization and a job. So I do read into... Yes, key competence! We are one show out of that world!
Gill Moakes (08:18.558)
Yes, absolutely.
Gill Moakes (08:29.374)
Right. Key competences. God, that's a phrase I haven't heard for a long time. Just giving me some sort of terrifying corporate throwback. What are your key competences? Ah! Oh, can you give me an example of a time when...
Rosalie Millard-Evans (08:45.458)
Can you give me an example of when you have demonstrated teamwork? Yeah.
Gill Moakes (08:51.582)
And then you'd be forever racking your brain to try and twist your answer to make yourself look good. So it'd be like, can you give an example of when something went wrong? Well, this went wrong, but I dealt with it fabulously.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (08:56.914)
you
Rosalie Millard-Evans (09:03.952)
I love psychology for the evidence base and the research so I get an interesting kind of dyslexia superpowers I can consume really large quantities of information so I'm not great to detail but I'm great at
Gill Moakes (09:06.738)
Brilliant.
Gill Moakes (09:24.698)
Right.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (09:29.362)
reading information and seeing patterns and seeing themes and drawing out, which is often the skill you need when you're working in that kind of environment to bring different frameworks and strategies together and make sense of them to the human mind. So as much as I enjoyed that, as I say, I've always been looking for the time when I would set up on my own. So I just had my first child, Imogen.
Gill Moakes (09:41.308)
Mm.
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (09:58.29)
So just over 12 years ago, and I was working at Cable and Wireless, as they were then, they got bought by Vodafone and taken over eventually. And I was designing and running the senior leadership program there. So it was a year long program and the sort of top talent leaders were on it. And it took them through all the great things like strategy and communication and influencing others. And I was looking for something a bit different for it. And someone said, oh,
Gill Moakes (10:00.894)
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (10:26.578)
You should go see this guy Andrew about the horses. Well, this piqued my interest.
Gill Moakes (10:33.022)
But you must have thought at the time... I'm sorry, what? Did you? I thought for a minute you said horses.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (10:37.618)
What? I said something! Well, do you know what? They had me at Horses because I grew up riding. So horses have always been a real passion for me. So I was like, horses? Really? That sounds interesting. So off I go to go and meet this chap, Andrew, from a company called Lead Change. And we met and he gave me a little demo of what he did. And I was absolutely blown away.
Gill Moakes (10:44.638)
Ah, they reeled you in.
Gill Moakes (10:52.252)
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (11:05.042)
And so I bought that whole leadership program to lead change, to work with horses, to be coached on how they show up, what their impact is on others, what kind of energy they bring and their emotional awareness. And I was just blown away because the thing I was coaching each of these leaders on was the thing that came up with the horses.
Gill Moakes (11:27.038)
So tell me, okay, so we've got these leaders going through this, you know, top drawer leadership program and now horses are entering the frame. Like for most people that's like, hmm, okay. What was it that when you went and met with this guy and he demonstrated what he's doing, well, first of all, what was he doing?
And then what was it that, what was it that captivated you and you thought, no, this would really work well for these people.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (11:52.72)
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (12:00.466)
Absolutely. Well, there was a fair bit of eyebrow raising and eye bonkers questions to be fair when I said that's what we were going to do. But ultimately the trust to go there and embrace the experience, which is what the group did. So what they do is you go into an indoor arena. So it's kind of like a covered space for the surface that the horses are on. And the horse comes in, the horse has on a head collar.
but you don't work with the rope, so they take the rope off. So the horse has choice about where the horse wants to be and what it wants to do. And then the people are set different challenges and tasks like see if you can take the horse for a walk around the arena or through some poles or ask the horse to take a few steps backwards. And what happens in these interactions is the horses just give this really lovely, very honest,
instant feedback on how people are showing up. So if you think horses have been around, modern horse for about five million years, compared to us we've been around for just under a million. So to give you a bit of context there, so over that five million years horses have evolved to really flourish, to be really good at what they do, which is live really good at being horses.
Gill Moakes (13:04.07)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (13:10.494)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (13:25.534)
They're really good at being horses, aren't they? Do you know what I mean? And I'm not being flippant when I say that. It's just like they are very self -actualized as horses.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (13:35.794)
Very self -assured. So they're good at living in a herd, they're good at communicating in a herd, so successful bonding, teamwork, collaboration. And they're very good at reading the room, if you like. So, you know, they're a prey animal. What they're good at is knowing when there's danger, being able to read intention and how that's evolved in modern horses is they're able to read the emotional energy of...
Gill Moakes (13:45.726)
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (14:02.258)
people, horses, because they're all part of that extended environment they're in and respond to it. So if the energy you turn up with is, you know, authentic and genuine, then they tend to move towards it. And so you're a bit nervous or a bit anxious or your mind's elsewhere, they'll tend to move away from it. So they'll respond the same way people do, but horses will...
be very obvious in their response. People will mask, right? So they might think one thing and do something else. I might think, oh, Jill's a bit off today. I don't really like how she's turning up. There's obviously stuff going on for her, but you know, I'll just be nice anyway and mask it. I can't promise.
Gill Moakes (14:32.062)
Yeah, exactly.
Gill Moakes (14:42.462)
Exactly yeah. Is that what you've had to do this morning Rosalie? I'll just be nice to her anyway. Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (14:49.234)
Oh, you know, just be nice. You know, you go to a dinner party, you go to a friend's for a dinner party and they've had a row. And no one's told you they've had a row, but you know they've had a row. But everyone just carries on being polite. No one goes, oh, there's a terrible atmosphere here, isn't there? So you just, oh, the child's babysitter's called, I've got to go home.
Gill Moakes (14:57.178)
Yes!
Oh, you can feel it in the air. Everybody can always see it. Yeah.
How early could we leave?
Gill Moakes (15:12.19)
We've all done that one.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (15:15.506)
So horses don't mask, they can't be too piscitous, they can't think one thing and behave in another way. So if they don't like how you're showing up, they just, they move away from it. Or they won't connect to you, they won't follow you. But if you come with a genuine energy, you know, you're emotionally aware, you're tuned into them, and you're fully present, then you just see this magic happen where people that have never been around horses,
Gill Moakes (15:23.006)
Right.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (15:43.964)
will walk off around your arena and the horses will follow them and be relaxed and engaged and exactly as you would like to lead your team. So it's all those pieces that just make them such valuable teachers around leadership and teamwork.
Gill Moakes (16:00.606)
is such a fresh lens on this. I'm really fascinated by this because, so the first thing I'm thinking is that I'm a bit scared of horses, if I'm honest. But it isn't that I wouldn't want that. I would want them to trust me and embrace me, but I am a bit scared of them. So, you know, what happens when people show up and they've got that nervousness about...
Rosalie Millard-Evans (16:12.21)
You're not alone.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (16:27.57)
It's not unusual, you know, they're big animals. They have a lot of presence. It's one of the reason why working with them is a really good leveler, you know, because, you know, they have that kind of impact on people. But normally what we find is the people that are the most nervous about it are the ones that get the most powerful experience because actually what we talk about...
Gill Moakes (16:35.998)
Mmm. Mmm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (16:53.906)
is self -awareness. So how aware am I of what's happening in my body and in my mind when I'm feeling a bit anxious or I'm feeling a bit nervous? And do I realise the impact that has on other people? And then can I do things to control it? So as well as working with adults, we also have a charity, Horseworld, that have sponsored this programme and...
Gill Moakes (17:03.516)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (17:07.206)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (17:16.542)
Yes, absolutely.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (17:17.714)
and work with young people and essentially what we do with young people is emotional intelligence in a nutshell. So can I notice what's happening in my own body and mind? Am I self aware? Can I observe what impact that's having on the horse? So I'm feeling nervous. Maybe the horse's head is up a little bit higher. Its ears are flicking around. It's kind of sensing that there might be some danger or something to look out for. Can I then make some choices about myself?
Gill Moakes (17:41.446)
Mm -hmm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (17:47.218)
that then impact the horse. So for example, can I do some box breathing? Can I just relax my shoulders, ground my feet? Can I tell myself I'm safe? You know, different strategies and toolkits that then have an impact on how I'm showing up and what impact does that have on the horse? And normally what happens is as the person relaxes, the horse relaxes and it'll tend to drop its head to breathe more deeply, to sometimes come and nuzzle the person. So a really, really, um,
Gill Moakes (17:57.158)
Mmm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (18:17.378)
strong experience of the change you can make in other people by changing things in yourself. So, you know, if I want to create something in others, I've got to create it in myself first.
Gill Moakes (18:29.982)
that's the lesson isn't it? I mean that's the, that's the, what a great leadership lesson and really you know that is the the reason isn't it? Presumably that is the reason that you wanted to give people that experience because that's the crux, that's the lesson right there. Just um...
Rosalie Millard-Evans (18:31.826)
Yeah, what a great leadership lesson.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (18:46.706)
That starts the bit, any few? Go.
Gill Moakes (18:50.366)
No, all I was going to say was I've seen, you know, firsthand the amazing intuition, I think it must be that horses have my son James, as a lot of listeners will know, is autistic. And, you know, he's, he's sort of semi verbal, you know, he does talk, but it's very repetitive. So, you know, he's quite severely autistic and
Rosalie Millard-Evans (19:05.714)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (19:16.574)
He loves to be around horses. He's not really keen on animals and he would hate an animal to come up to him. But if there's an animal that's standing still, he will love to go and pat it or be near it. And so he can't bear dogs, cats, anything like that because they're too unpredictable. But there's something about horses that they definitely do sense. They...
Rosalie Millard-Evans (19:24.688)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (19:46.078)
they just go so steady when James is around, even though his energy is quite frenetic. And I think there's something really intuitive that they understand. And this is where I think it is that I think there's an understanding that of his kind of innocence and intention is good. And I think the horses pick up on that.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (20:09.97)
Absolutely. They do and they're very, very intuitive. Quite often we'll get asked, you know, the horse will be standing in a group in the arena, maybe with the team and the horse will come up to one person in the team. I just have to say, normally it is a woman and the horse will come up and sort of nuzzle, nuzzle in. Why has the horse come up to her? Why her and not us? And I'll say, how do you feel about horses?
Gill Moakes (20:15.078)
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (20:26.734)
Didn't I?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (20:37.552)
I love them, isn't this horse gorgeous? I mean, he's just the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. And I'm so well, that's why the horse has come to her because when that's what you're giving off is love and adoration, people are drawn to it. When you're giving off that genuine sense of connection and openness, animals, people, they want to be around you. It's a very kind of pool energy. And absolutely,
Gill Moakes (20:48.094)
Yeah.
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (21:02.238)
It really is.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (21:04.346)
You know, going back to your son, the roots of what we do are in therapy. You know, equine therapy was the kind of precursor to this. And whilst I'm a psychologist, what we do isn't therapy, but I would say it's definitely therapeutic. So, you know, we often have tears. People feel very vulnerable and can be vulnerable. They have very honest conversations with their teams and with each other. And...
Gill Moakes (21:09.918)
Right.
Gill Moakes (21:19.334)
Mm -hmm. Yeah, I would agree with that. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (21:31.55)
Right.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (21:34.162)
we talk a lot about psychological safety and how we create that for ourselves and others. So working sometimes with kind of family officers, people that are very focused on security. So they might be focused on their physical security and their online security, but how do you create psychological security? So if you're under pressure or you're in a situation where you need to act and think fast,
Gill Moakes (21:51.964)
Mm -hmm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (22:02.066)
How do you prepare for that by knowing the tools and techniques you need that can quickly create a psychologically safe space for you and for your family or for your team? And the horses can help us do that because you're getting this lovely in the moment response. And, you know, I count myself incredibly lucky to have had that child's conversation where someone said, you should go and see this guy, Andrew, because, you know.
Gill Moakes (22:04.03)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (22:27.87)
Because, I mean, talk about, talk about sliding doors moment, Rosalie. Because like, imagine if you'd have just said, yeah, interesting. And I love horses, but I'm, I work with leadership. Like, imagine if you hadn't have pursued it.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (22:33.88)
absolutely slow to pause. Yeah not fast.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (22:42.61)
Yeah, and absolutely. So, you know, I went, I took that leadership group. I then trained with Andrew and Lead Change. So I left full -time work. I set up on my own, set up my first business psychology consultancy and I decided to train with Andrew as part of that. And I worked, did some freelance consultancy work with Lead Change for a few years. And then after three years of that.
Gill Moakes (22:49.798)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (22:58.8)
Yes.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (23:09.488)
And Angie said, why don't you buy the business? So, you know, I'm ready to retire, that's swap. And so I did that. So I do say to people, be careful of coming on a workshop because you never know where you might end up. But, you know, from that one chance encounter to buying Leach Change and now I travel all around the globe, Amsterdam, Istanbul, Lisbon, the States, Nepal.
Gill Moakes (23:20.126)
Ha ha!
Rosalie Millard-Evans (23:36.914)
and I work with horses anywhere, so I just need a horse to be a horse. So I'll find a riding stable.
Gill Moakes (23:41.086)
So that's your, so your only requirement. So someone, you know, I know a lot of my listeners are in the States. If you're listening and you were, and this is like, oh my God, I would love this. It's like, they just need to find your horse and you can do it. I love that.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (23:58.034)
Yeah, find a horse. I mean, the Tindigirds and Nepal, which was probably one of the most challenging places, they found a horse. You're never that far away from a horse. And as I say, I just need them to...
Gill Moakes (24:09.758)
Can I tell you how stupid my brain is sometimes? Do you know where my brain went then? My brain literally went. But in Nepal, surely the horses wouldn't understand what you were saying.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (24:22.002)
People often say that, they're like, do they understand? If we're in Spain, do we need to speak to the horses in Spanish?
Gill Moakes (24:30.494)
My god, honestly, that is honestly the first thing that came into my head.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (24:34.674)
But I mean, policy's communication is so sophisticated. There's like 200 plus non -verbal signals that I've heard will give each other to communicate facial expressions, movements in their bodies, swishing of the tail, tensing of the muscles, eyes. So it's actually quite sophisticated. And you see in wild herds, you know, kind of in juxtaposition to...
Gill Moakes (24:37.156)
Jill get a grip.
Gill Moakes (24:48.102)
Wow.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (25:04.242)
how we may have traditionally viewed leadership, maybe not now, but some 20 years ago. It's not, there is no dominant horse. There is no dominant stallion that leads the herd. The stallion tends, no, not to.
Gill Moakes (25:09.278)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (25:15.07)
Is that true? So the herd doesn't have a dominant horse?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (25:19.762)
No, the stallion will sometimes be at the back and we'll be making sure that the slowest on the weakest, the oldest and the youngest are keeping up and are safe. And there'll often be an older mare, so a female horse, that people look towards. So I even see it in our, you know, they're not really herds, but in our groups of horses in the field, that the oldest mare will often...
tell the youngest when it's time to stand in the shade and when it's time to go and have a group of water and sort of move them on. Come on, we're all going to go and stand over here. But they all take signals from each other. Yes, yeah, and it's that very collaborative shared leadership, but it's a serving role, not a dominance role. And again, so you just learn so much from that.
Gill Moakes (25:50.526)
Oh, how funny!
That sounds quite similar to elephants as well.
Mm.
Mmm.
Gill Moakes (26:10.622)
Absolutely. I'm just thinking, God, I hope that when humans, if humans survive for five million years, let's hope we evolve in that same way.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (26:20.018)
We've got hay! Yes Jill, absolutely. That's, you know, it's inspirational and aspirational. Be more horse.
Gill Moakes (26:24.638)
Wouldn't that be good?
It is inspirational. It is inspirational. What? Exactly. Gosh, so true. So thinking about the work that you do, and you say you can do this, you do it all around the world. Who makes for really good clients for you for this? What kind of organizations embrace this kind of thing?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (26:34.66)
I'm
Rosalie Millard-Evans (26:53.938)
Well, I think the conversations changed a lot. So the company's been running since 2002. And I think back then, you know, people really were like, horses, what are you talking about? But I think, you know, if you have a conversation with people today, most of them understand the concept of experiential learning of, you know, people go sailing, people go and have teen days out, you know, you can do all sorts of different activities that help you.
Gill Moakes (27:05.502)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (27:13.382)
Mm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (27:22.194)
bond and connect as a team. So if you think the horses is like that, but it goes another level because you're coaching people, both one -to -one and as a group. So it's that combination of I'm having the experience by more so being coached in the moment to really become aware of the insights and play with different ways of being to see what different outcomes I get. It's a nice safe environment because I'd let you into a secret. The horse doesn't really mind.
Gill Moakes (27:31.1)
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (27:52.146)
whether you're a good leader or not. Like the horse will go back to its stable. He's going back to his stable, I feel. No, he's not gonna go back and talk to his mates and be like, well, you know, I'm not gonna go and work for Microsoft because.
Gill Moakes (27:54.358)
What? You mean the horse isn't doing an assessment at the end of the day?
Gill Moakes (28:07.47)
Yeah, you should have seen this dickhead I had today.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (28:12.466)
Absolutely. No, they will, you know, they'll go back to their field or stable and go on with their lives. So it's a safe space. It's a non -judgmental place. So you can play with different things and being different and get that lovely real feedback. But without any of the risk of trying it with your actual team or in a...
Gill Moakes (28:18.302)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (28:32.732)
Yeah
Rosalie Millard-Evans (28:35.762)
Yeah, back in...
Gill Moakes (28:36.638)
here that's the point though isn't it is that you probably wouldn't try it with your actual team. For better or worse you probably wouldn't. Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (28:43.09)
You might not try different strategies. No, because you might be worried about the impact. I mean, people, because generally people come to us in kind of three different ways. So we're either part of the leadership program. So, you know, a group of leaders from across the business come along. And, you know, we've worked with Sodexo, with Microsoft, with all sorts of large corporates in that way. And...
Gill Moakes (28:55.068)
Mm -hmm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (29:11.122)
or people come to us as a team. So maybe a senior team, an exec team, sometimes, you know, team from across the business, but they come as a team. And so what can we learn about how we interact with each other? So then the focus is on play as a team and playing with different behaviors and ways of collaborating. And, you know, we'll overlay with a lot of psychology theory. So there'll be emotion, intelligence, there might be...
you know, looking at the different dysfunctions of a team, but there's different ways that we can bring that learning to life and give it a structure. So that as well as getting this great, very memorable experience, you're getting that really solid commercial and business outcomes as well. So, you know, you're coming away with a team that has greater trust, that understands the behaviors and...
Gill Moakes (29:40.368)
Yep.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (30:03.186)
the strengths behaviors and the behaviors that they need to build more of in order to really succeed, a deeper understanding of one another and how they show up, you know, all of those pieces. So you're getting those really important outcomes as well as, I'll be honest, people do have a lot of fun as well. Can't I?
Gill Moakes (30:06.714)
Right.
Gill Moakes (30:22.366)
I bet they do. But I think isn't that the best combination? It's experiential learning that's really tailored to specific outcomes that are going to be beneficial for the organization who's probably footing the bill. But at the same time, it's still a really fun and I loathe to say bonding in case people get flashbacks to team bonding, raft building, which obviously I'm scarred for life.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (30:39.794)
Absolutely.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (30:49.938)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (30:53.662)
Bloody wrath building.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (30:53.802)
Absolutely.
Gill Moakes (30:57.438)
But yeah, I think it's an amazing way to bring a team together as well, because presumably, you know, these are people who... I mean, well, I shouldn't say presumably. I'm just wondering, is it always a group that's coming from one organization?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (31:21.49)
No, so the one organization I do a lot of work with and were one of my first clients when I bought Knee Change, both my father -in -law and my father were part of this organization. So again, a real kind of family connection. It's a group called Vistage and they are a coaching organization. Originally, when my dad joined, it was called Tech and it was about bringing entrepreneurs and leaders in the tech industry together.
Gill Moakes (31:36.798)
Oh wow!
Rosalie Millard-Evans (31:51.122)
to kind of do peer learning and peer coaching, where you maybe didn't have a really a board around you or people that you could sound things off at work, you know, where you were very much in that quite lonely entrepreneurial role. So how do I get different perspectives? And then Vistage is an organization that does that with CEOs from all size organizations now.
Gill Moakes (32:03.196)
Bye.
Gill Moakes (32:08.518)
Mmm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (32:19.056)
across the country. So there's different groups and there's a chair that coaches them and anyway they go away and they do these fantastic retreats every year. They're totally open to learning so they're a really good people to work with so that because they're all absolutely embraced it and they do all sorts of wild and wonderful things on their retreats. It's kind of their thing. So I go all around the country doing retreats for them and I say they're all from different businesses in that context.
Gill Moakes (32:28.158)
Oh, that's up my... I love retreats. Mmm.
Gill Moakes (32:45.086)
Oh, I love that. So that must make it really interesting as well. If you've got a group coming together that don't know each other that well, that puts another lens on it too.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (32:52.786)
Yeah, really interesting. It does and talk about the women's chapter that you mentioned earlier on. I'm looking at working with a couple of people within the women's chapter as well to put down retreats. I spoke to the lovely Anne who does some fantastic retreats and events for women and we're going to be looking at how we integrate the horses. So watch this space, women's chapter.
Gill Moakes (33:00.432)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (33:14.246)
Yes!
Gill Moakes (33:21.31)
Oh, wonderful. And of course, I myself and my partner in crime, Lauren Jones, who owns an amazing brand company called Brand by Boudicca, we actually co -host retreats under our unapologetic retreats umbrella. So we will definitely be talking and exploring because it's just something so different. And yeah, I'm excited to explore that.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (33:45.298)
It's so lovely and the best thing is wherever in the world you want to run your own polyponeurotic retreats, we can find horses and do it there. We have worked on a beach once, we roped off an arena on a beach.
Gill Moakes (33:52.89)
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, that's exciting. So you
Gill Moakes (34:00.606)
Did you? Oh, I bet that was gorgeous.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (34:05.49)
I have to say slightly distracting, one of the more distracting environments I've done it on, but it definitely very memorable.
Gill Moakes (34:10.268)
I bet. Yeah, and that's, you know, that's part of what it's all about, isn't it? Absolutely. So tell me, so what? You've got the... Sorry, Lena, my mind's gone blank.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (34:17.554)
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (34:24.626)
I was just going to say I kind of want to talk about my high ticket item listening to your guess.
Gill Moakes (34:33.054)
Yes. So I was just going to come into, is it to prime coach that you want me to come now or?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (34:37.938)
It's prime coach, but can we finish the high ticket item for lead change? Because I'd love to, because our work one to one with people as well and do this immersive for individuals or for families. So that's kind of like my high ticket offer.
Gill Moakes (34:42.846)
lead change. That's what I was grabbing for.
Got it.
Gill Moakes (34:52.958)
Oh, perfect. Okay, yeah, let me get into that. Okay, Lena, we're back. So organizations can hire you to come in, how else can people work with you? If this is if people are listening and thinking, God, sounds really fascinating. Is that you know, does it need to be a group environment or?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (35:14.642)
No, absolutely. We can do really deep, focused, one -to -one immersive experiences. And as well as the horses, because of my psychology background and my leadership background, I've got all sorts of different tools and techniques that we use for working one -to -one and taking people on that really deep journey of discovery.
So it might be an individual, it might be a family group that we work with, but we will design something completely bespoke and that will just guide you through a series of experiences that I hope and enlighten, you know, a bit like the anapolybojetic retreats, being able to do that really lovely deep work. And that's something I get a lot of joy from as well.
Gill Moakes (36:02.78)
Yeah.
Oh, I can imagine. I think that sounds absolutely like, I would love to do that. I think, I just feel like it must be so, I think you use the word, use the word immersive experience. I feel like that is like almost the definition, isn't it? Is to really immerse yourself in that world and that, that horse is, Lena, go back. I'm absolutely like.
talking shit. I don't know what I'm even talking about. Poor Lena. This is why you have to have a... This is why I don't understand how anyone can have a podcast on their own and not have an editor. You can go and make them sound some way coherent.
Okay, I'm back, Lena. So there's the group experience and there's these immersive, like more private experiences. That just sounds absolutely amazing.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (37:05.298)
Yeah, absolutely. And as I say, they're tailored to the needs of the individual. So we can kind of go anywhere and explore anything. So it goes back to that endless possibility. So I get really excited about putting those together.
Gill Moakes (37:18.91)
You're quite a limitless thinker, aren't you? I think.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (37:23.282)
I would absolutely, yes, I say absolutely a response to Limitless because I'm absolutely limitless.
Gill Moakes (37:25.916)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (37:29.756)
HAHAHAHA
Gill Moakes (37:36.062)
Full stop.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (37:37.81)
Categorically!
Gill Moakes (37:40.174)
No, but I do honestly feel it does radiate from you. And I think what's so interesting is that when we just looping back a little bit, and you were saying that, you know, part of that is your upbringing for sure, you know, you were kind of born with this, but also your dyslexia as well, has really like fostered this.
Well, there's always, of course there's a solution. Of course it's possible.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (38:07.826)
is and also you know.
Of course there's always the solution and also some great big dollops of luck. I the introductions around you. I remember in that first session with the horses standing in the arena and although I had horses most of my life, I'd been away from them for about 10 years, you know, moved to London, and I just remember being in that arena and the smell.
Gill Moakes (38:29.66)
right.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (38:35.41)
and the sensation just an overwhelming sense of this is where I need to be I need to come back to this so it was a real epiphany for me so I mean I count myself really lucky that somehow I've managed to combine my passion for psychology and people with horses that I get to go around the world and meet really interesting people and gorgeous horses and get paid for it I mean don't tell anyone but you can't really call it a job.
Gill Moakes (38:40.702)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (38:59.23)
Live in the dream.
Gill Moakes (39:03.934)
You
Rosalie Millard-Evans (39:05.202)
Hahaha!
Gill Moakes (39:06.878)
I feel like that as a coach. I honestly feel like that as a coach. You know, hang on, I get paid to have these really interesting conversations. That's madness.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (39:09.426)
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (39:16.85)
So, yeah, a lot of gratitude for that.
Gill Moakes (39:18.162)
Aren't we lucky? Aren't we lucky to feel that way? I was talking, do you know what was funny? I was in, I was with James actually in the, I was in the Costa coffee with James at the weekend and there was.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (39:27.73)
I thought you were going to say the Costa del Sol. That's why I was like, oh Costa del Sol. Can you tell I'm craving sunshine?
Gill Moakes (39:33.758)
Oh no, cost of coffee.
Gill Moakes (39:40.67)
Yeah exactly. But I was, there was no table to sit at and James has such a routine he does have to have a table to sit at so I was getting a bit like oh god this is going to be a nightmare he's gonna he's not going to be happy about this and this really nice couple of guys let me sit down it was father and son and I just got chatting to them really lovely people so Owen and Milo if you're listening you were you made a for a very
lovely coffee date. But the son Milo is he's a travel writer for The Mirror. And my first reaction to that was the same as yours. It's like living the dream. And that's how I feel about you, Osley. Living the dream travel and work. That's what we want. Yeah. Yeah. And then what else? So what else takes up your time because you've you've got that but you've also got
Rosalie Millard-Evans (40:21.874)
Yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (40:26.514)
living the dream. Is that clear?
Gill Moakes (40:38.526)
So, where does Prime Coach fit in with all of this?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (40:40.018)
Prime coach, yes. I was going to say I'm lucky, I'm lucky not just to have one passion, but two really. So, prime coach was born out of COVID. So I've met my co -founder, Paddy, while we were working on a huge program for Travis Perkins. So we did coaching, individual group coaching for over a thousand people.
Gill Moakes (40:46.558)
I know.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (41:06.546)
And the impact was amazing, but what we noticed was it was the one -to -one coaching that really had the most power and made the most change for people. And the program's interesting because instead of being focused at the senior level, because it was resilience and wellbeing, it was all the way through the organization. So came far down as branch managers who were coping with a lot of stuff. You know, they were coping with COVID families, keeping the business running, all of this stuff.
Gill Moakes (41:16.528)
Yup.
Gill Moakes (41:30.526)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (41:34.398)
Mm. Mm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (41:36.946)
Um, and it just started sparking my dyslexic kernel of an idea where I was like, why, why is coaching always aimed at that exact senior level? It's like, you've got a EAP, your employee assistance program at one end, but let's face it, you don't go to the EAP, you don't use a physio till your elbow hurts. You don't go to.
Gill Moakes (41:57.95)
Bye, yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (41:58.706)
the counseling and doing relationships, swallowing apart. You don't use the AP till it's broken. It's like, oh, broken, I'll go there. And then you've got this, you know, very high ticket, except coaching, which obviously has great value at the other end. The kind of that equality piece kicked in. It's like, why can't we have coaching, a proactive, whole person type coaching that sits in the middle of the organization?
Gill Moakes (42:01.79)
It's really the first aid department.
Gill Moakes (42:11.838)
Absolutely, yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (42:28.274)
Because why doesn't everyone deserve to be the best version of themselves? Why is that only this select group, your top talent or your exec? And so that was where the kernel of the idea came from. And we set about kind of changing and disrupting the coaching model slightly so that we could deliver that.
Gill Moakes (42:47.294)
I love it. I think I quite like how your brain works. You know, you are very much a... that doesn't sound fair. Let's change that.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (42:48.502)
I'm
Rosalie Millard-Evans (43:00.014)
That's what's right.
is everyone deserves to be the best version of themselves and there's a bit like you know there it does have that roots and everyone deserves access to health care it should be free at the point of access so although we have a strong commercial angle we deliver great ROI for our clients we also have a really strong pro bono focus so when clients work with us they can either pick a charity that they already support so it's supporting their ESG policy or
Gill Moakes (43:28.766)
Mm -hmm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (43:31.378)
We also work with different charities and we deliver pro bono coaching. So everyone really does deserve. So we say, just cause, just cause your business can't afford it or just because you're not at a point in your life where you can access it does, shouldn't be a barrier to you having this life changing resource to having access to one to one coaching.
Gill Moakes (43:46.718)
Amazing. I just love that model. Love that model. And speaking of charity, I just wanted you to quickly touch on our sponsor for this episode. Something that I'm very excited to do is Horse Herd. And that's the name of the charity, isn't it? Horse Herd.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (43:51.766)
So it is.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (44:09.938)
Yes, Horsehead. So Horsehead basically does what Lead Change does. It focuses on building emotional awareness, emotional resilience, but we work with young people, we work with veterans, we work with NHS staff. We've worked with 500 children through Buckingham Healthcare Trust in the last two years. And we're looking at the moment, we're working on becoming part of the clinical pathways for people that are on the waiting list for anxiety to come and do sessions with us.
Gill Moakes (44:24.122)
Wonderful.
Gill Moakes (44:30.588)
Wow.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (44:39.57)
teaching kids resilience, confidence and emotional agility really. So we're absolutely passionate about that. We're always looking for companies to sponsor programs. If anyone out there is like, that's amazing, I want to know more. Or if you work with a group of people that you think might really benefit from that kind of intervention then check out the website which is horsehair .com and you can find out a little bit more.
Gill Moakes (44:54.27)
Yes, absolutely.
Gill Moakes (45:09.374)
Amazing, thank you Rosalie. And for anyone listening who would love to find out a bit more about how they can work with you, where can they find out more about you?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (45:11.986)
And can I?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (45:20.594)
So actually head over to primecoach .uk and find out about how we bring coaches, how we simplify, make it scalable. So we have, hold on a second, Nina, I'm going to pause that. Sorry, Nina. So, because I wanted to say a little bit more about matching and chemistry about prime coach, if I can. It probably doesn't fit in this bit. So what audit you want to do?
Gill Moakes (45:35.18)
Lena!
Gill Moakes (45:48.626)
give it a go. So Lena, maybe you could slot this in just before I left Prime Coach and went into the charity. Could you see if you can shoehorn this bit in, if it makes sense to? Yeah, yeah, go ahead.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (45:57.584)
Coach, yeah.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (46:02.29)
Slop this next bit. Yeah.
So what we've tried to do at Prime Coach is simplify coaching. So we use matching rather than chemistry. So where traditional coaching, you might say, oh, I want to coach. I'm going to go look at five coaches. The organization's going to find them. You read the profiles and you have chemistry sessions with a couple of them. Then you have an R of which one's going to be best for you. So we just cut that whole process out and we use a matching algorithm.
and our own experiences of our coaches and knowledge of our coaches to match people based on what they want to be coached on. And that came about because my research brain went and said, chemistry, so where's the evidence for that? And actually, if you look, there's very little evidence that chemistry sessions result in better coaching outcomes. And in fact, you get some things like unconscious bias. So you might recruit a coach in your own image.
Gill Moakes (46:41.424)
you
Gill Moakes (46:52.606)
Mm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (46:59.538)
And then you might have some unconscious bias to kind of please them or say things that please them. So actually by using more research and evidence -based criteria to match people with the right coach, you're getting to that ROI much quicker. So you're simplifying the process for the organisation, no burden of finding matching quality assuring coaches, people just fill in their profile. You can literally buy credits today, have your people coaching by the end of the week.
Gill Moakes (47:29.982)
Mmm.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (47:30.546)
And that's what we've tried to do and that's how it's scalable and affordable. So yeah, we're dead excited about growing it and taking it to new heights. So we're just at the end of year one and we're looking forward to what's to come.
Gill Moakes (47:45.118)
Oh, congratulations. I think it's a fantastic model. And it just feels, it must feel good. It must feel good, like you say, to just make coaching more accessible. I think anything that can do that, that makes good coaching more accessible for people is fantastic.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (47:59.89)
And I've got a fab team. I work with my really good friend, Ells, with my co -founder, Paddy, and we have a great time as well working together. So again, love life, really. Absolutely. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (48:11.198)
And that always helps, right? A good team really helps.
Yeah, absolutely. Shout out to my team. Yeah, definitely. Lena, can you try and get that threaded back in and then we can jump into the charity bit. And then now I'm going to just wrap now. So we did where people can reach you. OK, I'm just going to wrap up.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (48:20.858)
Shout to all the teams.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (48:44.722)
I don't think we did that. Should we do that again? Should we run the pick group? Yeah.
Gill Moakes (48:46.718)
Oh, should we do that bit again? Okay, let's do it. I'm going to go back to where people were. So thank you for sharing everything. If people want to find out a bit more about you and how they can work with you in all of these different ways, what's their first port of call? Where can they go?
Rosalie Millard-Evans (49:04.658)
Well, you can find me on LinkedIn. If you're interested in knowing about the horses, there's lots of videos and photos and case studies on our website, which is leadchange .com. And if you're interested in finding out about how I changed in the world of Prime Coach, then you can visit primecoach .uk, not co .uk, just primecoach .uk. And that will take you through to our website and you can contact us from there.
Gill Moakes (49:33.534)
Perfect. And of course I will put all of those links in the show notes. Rosalie, you've been a fascinating guest to have on. I'm really grateful. And I, you know, I'm really captivated by Lead Change and Prime Coach, to be honest with you, because they're both pretty innovative, which I now expect from you, from our conversations. It's going to be something fresh thinking for sure.
So thank you for coming on and sharing. It's been such a pleasure to talk to you.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (50:04.21)
Well, thank you. Thank you for guiding me through my first ever podcast, Jill. So so expertly. I've loved it.
Gill Moakes (50:10.622)
I hope it wasn't too painful.
Ah good. Well thank you so much and I'll speak to you again soon. Bye for now.
Rosalie Millard-Evans (50:19.858)
Thanks, bye.
