Gill Moakes (00:00.917)
Hey Melina, hi! Welcome to Heads Together again, loyal guest of the show.
Melina Cordero (00:03.202)
Hello.
again.
Love it. Love to be here.
Gill Moakes (00:10.539)
So, so good to have you back. Thank you. For anyone, I'm sure that no one has not already heard your episode, but should there be one or two people listening who haven't, can you tell us a bit about who you are and what you do, please?
Melina Cordero (00:15.308)
Thank you.
Melina Cordero (00:27.906)
I sure can. So I am Melina Cordero. I spent pretty much all, most of my career at this point, living a very fast paced, fast rising career in commercial real estate, rose up really high, really young as a woman in a male dominated space. And in 2021,
sort of mid pandemic, I left it all to shift my focus to something I felt really passionate about and had grown over the years, which was diversity, equity, inclusion, and leadership. So since then, the past three or four years, I have been working with organizations on how to actually, effectively, authentically create more inclusive environments through strategies, tools, and a lot of education. And I...
also have a perspective on DEI that is very, very linked to leadership. So I work with leaders and organizations on how we create more inclusive leaders because I feel that the people and our leaders are very, very important pieces of the puzzle when it comes to creating better workplaces.
Gill Moakes (01:42.731)
Absolutely, yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And you have a few, I know there's a few ways people work with you at the moment, aren't there? There are a few different things and I know that one of the things that you have developed is the P20 platform, which for anyone who's interested, I would urge you to go back, listen to the first episode that we did with Melina because there was lots in there about the P20 platform.
which is just the most incredible resource for organizations that becomes their, it can actually become their internal, like intranet version, can't it, of a DEI platform. So it's phenomenal what you've built with that.
Melina Cordero (02:24.442)
Yeah, P20 is, yeah, P20 is technically an e -learning platform, right? But I describe it as the Netflix of DEI and leadership learning. And I developed it really as a response to what I saw not working with a lot of organizations, which was a recognition that we need to be training and equipping and learning about this DEI thing and leadership and management development. But...
Gill Moakes (02:31.499)
Right.
Gill Moakes (02:40.595)
Mm.
Melina Cordero (02:53.634)
using tools and teachings and workshops and approaches and technologies, honestly, that didn't really work, were very boring, were too long, were not really equipping, and people were walking away feeling like, okay, I just spent three hours doing this thing, but now what? And so P20, it's a tick box thing, which...
Gill Moakes (03:02.697)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (03:09.163)
Just the whole tick box thing, wasn't it? Just that whole tick box, yeah.
Melina Cordero (03:14.05)
And sometimes box ticking is done with good intentions, surprisingly. And so what I wanted to do is marry good intentions with actually effective, useful tools. And so P20 is my response to that. So it's like a Netflix. So multimedia short videos built on something called micro learning. So everything's really under five or 10 minutes with lots of resources from audio to video to written.
Gill Moakes (03:17.355)
Yeah. Right.
Gill Moakes (03:23.881)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (03:36.713)
Ugh.
Melina Cordero (03:40.898)
that focuses on really practical things, everything from what's a gender pronoun to what can I do as a leader if I have a hybrid team and I'm struggling to keep them on task, right? So really content and learning built for a post 2020 workplace, which is where the P20 term comes from post 2020.
and all of the joys of technology and hybrid work and post -pandemic reality that come with it.
Gill Moakes (04:12.447)
Absolutely, because it is a different landscape now. It is completely different landscape now. So I just love that you've run with that and actually brought in and it truly is, by the way, a Netflix of DEI. It's so good the way that you've structured it. So consumable. So yeah, kudos to you for that. It's amazing. The other thing, obviously part of what P20 and your work around DEI is...
Melina Cordero (04:33.794)
Thank you.
Gill Moakes (04:40.811)
includes is gender equality and looking at particularly with a lens through women in the workplace. I don't know if actually Lena, can you take that out? Because I don't think it's particularly, I don't feel that's a good choice of words. What would you say?
Melina Cordero (04:48.96)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (04:59.138)
I'd say gender is one of the big focuses and it relates a lot to my personal experience, right? Because I was in this male -centric environment. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (05:01.675)
Okay, perfect.
Yes. Oh, perfect. That's given me a good one. Okay. I'm back, Lena. I wanted to ask you, because obviously your own experience in this very male dominated real estate background that you rose up through, it must have been, well, obviously it was challenging because I think it always is challenging.
as a woman rising up through a male dominated arena. And I know that that experience has informed your work. And I know that, you know, because one of the big pieces that you covered with P20, for example, is gender equality. But I also know that there is a project and this is what I would love us to talk about on this episode. And I'm excited to hear more about because we've kind of touched on it when we've talked before, but I've never really asked you.
about what it was really about and what the intention, et cetera, was. So I would love to know. It's called the Women on Work Project, right? And I'd love to know like what it is and what made you start it.
Melina Cordero (06:16.738)
Yeah, it's one of my favorite projects and one of the first projects that I started when I left my corporate job, my corporate career. And the women on work project was started because I had my experience as a woman in the workplace and in a male dominated environment, industry company, zoom calls, everything. And I don't think that I realized how many obstacles and challenges I was dealing with on a day to day basis.
Gill Moakes (06:25.769)
Was it?
Gill Moakes (06:39.913)
Mm.
Melina Cordero (06:46.644)
because of that for years. And it wasn't until after I left and really towards the end of my time there during the pandemic when it hit me, oh my goodness, a lot of my struggles and challenges are related to this thing called...
gender bias, gender inequity, gender inequality, right? I was so focused on my career and growth and doing things well and getting the job done that I didn't realize how much of my stress and exhaustion was coming from these structural obstacles that were around me. And I started to notice during the pandemic how many women around me were struggling.
Gill Moakes (07:06.219)
Yeah.
Right.
Gill Moakes (07:24.499)
Mmm.
Melina Cordero (07:34.266)
Everybody was struggling. But there was something about the women around me who were struggling more than...
Gill Moakes (07:36.811)
sure.
Gill Moakes (07:42.101)
I agree.
Melina Cordero (07:43.618)
the men for lots of reasons. And when I say this, I'm talking about clients, I'm talking about colleagues, I'm talking about friends. And I started really noticing that distinction. And that was the sort of straw that broke the camel's back for me in terms of saying, there's some work to do here and I want to do it. So that's, that was the inspiration for it. And so when I realized that there were these structural things going on, that it wasn't just me.
Is how I put it wasn't just me there was there was a shared experience here. It's not just a me thing there. There's something to unpack here.
Gill Moakes (08:13.035)
Yeah, yeah, this isn't just a me thing.
Melina Cordero (08:21.058)
I wanted to unpack it and for me, I have a very data driven, very research driven background and mind and I'm one person. So there's no way that I can say, okay, well, because I experienced X, Y and Z, we're gonna draw this conclusion about the experience of women in the workplace. So what I wanted to do was talk to as many women as I could and gather their experiences and paint a bigger, more nuanced picture. So I wanted to speak to as many women as possible from different backgrounds.
caregivers, mothers, single, married, no children. Also it's really important to gather experiences of women in different sectors, nonprofit, private, public. Could we see a big difference between the environments where we work? I also wanted to talk to women with very different racial and ethnic identities because we know from the data that the experience of someone with lighter skin and someone with darker skin can be very, very different.
And so I wanted to understand all of that. And so I said, you know what, I'm going to just open my zoom doors to any woman who is open and willing to talk to me about their experience in their workplace so that I can better understand not only.
what the challenges are, but also what the opportunities are, and then take all this information and say, this is what we can do about it to make the workplace better for women. And when we can make the workplace better for women, we make the workplace better for everyone.
Gill Moakes (09:53.771)
Absolutely. And you are, the first thing that's coming up for me as you're telling me this is that my God, you are so the woman to do this because you are, well, you just are, you, I mean, for one thing, you're so accessible and people, you make people feel comfortable and relaxed. And I think you must've been able to gather so much great data. Also, you are just a data queen because you have this ability, don't you, to
to gather data and then really pull from it the key insights.
Melina Cordero (10:28.61)
Well, here's what I've learned about data. I was just having a conversation with a client about this yesterday. Data is incredibly important. I love data. People love data. Every time I do a presentation on a stage, I always include data. And people are taking out their phones and taking pictures because it's useful and it sticks. But here's the other thing that we can't do without the data or that makes the data even more powerful is stories.
Gill Moakes (10:38.121)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (10:45.533)
Yep.
Melina Cordero (10:55.49)
So sometimes stories fill the gaps that data misses. Sometimes stories make data make sense. And stories most importantly humanize data. So sometimes we can talk about a data point related to, let's say interruptions. Women are interrupted X percentage more frequently than men. That's a data point.
Gill Moakes (10:56.107)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (11:00.639)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (11:08.971)
Of course.
Melina Cordero (11:19.33)
What makes that data point really real and powerful is when you hear the story of a woman, let's say me or any other woman saying, here's an example of a time I was interrupted, here's how it made me feel. And here's what I did about it or here's what I didn't do about it and why. And here's how I couldn't sleep that night because it just bothered me so much and I felt so undermined.
Gill Moakes (11:42.667)
Mm. Mm.
Melina Cordero (11:42.786)
Right? So when we pair data and stories, you have this incredibly powerful knowledge and insight. And that's what I wanted to do here because I didn't want to just keep going on stage and talking about data points. I wanted to make it real and human because people can understand that and stories stick.
Gill Moakes (12:02.991)
story stick. Absolutely. We know that. And I suppose that's what I was getting at when I was saying that, you know, you because you are so easy to for someone to be able to share stories with and coupling that with your, you know, amazing talent for processing the data and really pulling the insights from it. You were just the prime person to do this.
So I'm interested then, so what were some of the key themes that you covered with the project?
Melina Cordero (12:35.042)
There were so many, right? And every woman has her own story, but there are a lot of overlaps and a lot of shared experiences. And one of the things that ended up coming out, one of the purposes, right? That ended up coming out of this project that I didn't anticipate was with each one of these women talking to her and reassuring her, you're not alone in this.
Gill Moakes (12:36.971)
Right.
Gill Moakes (12:42.195)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (12:58.722)
I just spoke to five other women who literally said the same thing, who shared a very similar experience. And the look of surprise, and then the sense of relief that I would see over the Zoom with a woman when I was telling her, oh yeah, every single woman I've spoken to has said the exact same thing or something, some variation of it, is...
Gill Moakes (12:58.923)
Bye.
Gill Moakes (13:02.347)
Wow.
Gill Moakes (13:09.513)
relief.
Melina Cordero (13:19.618)
is incredibly powerful because so many women, and really anyone who's underrepresented in a workplace, a lot of times we're sort of struggling on our own. Sure, we may have family or friends outside of work that we can rely on, but there's always this barrier because no one really fully understands. And so we're struggling through this a lot of times feeling like, oh, it's just me. Who feels this way? I lack confidence or I lack assertiveness, right? And then we blame ourselves.
Gill Moakes (13:36.521)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (13:47.126)
Because we don't know that it's systemic or structural and what ways, you know, our feeling or our stress is triggered by the people or the things around us as opposed to my inability to handle stress, right? That's oftentimes what we hear. So it was really interesting to pull out the common themes and there were many, but there were a few that I think are actionable for me and for us in the word growth.
Gill Moakes (13:47.283)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (13:59.883)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (14:11.115)
Ah, and that's what I'm interested in because this project, like the, like you say, just coming back to the why you did it is, is that you could see that there were certain things that if you went into and, and really understood, then you would know where the changes needed to be made. And I, so I suppose, you know, it's, the project will be interesting across the board, but what's the actionable stuff that's come out of this?
Melina Cordero (14:39.586)
Yeah. So let me share the sort of three or four key themes that really came out and then what I think our response is, could be, should be. So, and it's interesting because all of these points are backed up by data. As I found out either I knew before or I research and found out later, but the stories are powerful. And so the first thing that really came out is that women are kind of doing more.
Gill Moakes (14:49.417)
Perfect, perfect, yes.
Melina Cordero (15:07.874)
Right, so that's probably no surprise. We know statistically, especially for anybody who's a caregiver, who may have children, for example, that even in a household where two parents are both working, the woman ends up doing a larger share of the housework. We know this from census data. This is a rock solid fact. But in the workplace, women are doing more. And so it's really interesting because there's this concept,
Gill Moakes (15:28.619)
Yep. Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (15:37.73)
called non -promotable tasks, which is super interesting. Non -promotable tasks are tasks, duties, responsibilities, things we do at work that are not part of our job descriptions, that are not compensated, so we're not paid to do them, we're not paid extra to do them, and that often relate to things like,
Gill Moakes (15:47.947)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (15:52.011)
Right.
Gill Moakes (15:57.285)
Yup.
Melina Cordero (16:06.662)
workplace culture, you know, going out and buying the birthday card for someone on the team, organizing the lunch.
Gill Moakes (16:12.875)
in my head then? Organizing the nights out, organizing the night... yeah I just had that in my head. Yeah I can see that, I remember that.
Melina Cordero (16:19.636)
Mm -hmm. That's exactly what it is. Getting the birthday cake for the new team member for their birthday to recognize them. Serving on a committee, let's say a DEI committee, can be considered a non -promotable task if it is not explicitly recognized in your bonus or promotion or job criteria, anything like that. So...
Gill Moakes (16:27.635)
Hmm?
Gill Moakes (16:35.051)
Huh?
Melina Cordero (16:47.412)
What I found was that women, the women I spoke with were disproportionately doing many more of these tasks and working more and working longer hours and doing more unpaid, unrecognized work than their male colleagues, which is backed up by data. Right. But what's interesting is that they were sort of expected.
Gill Moakes (17:06.187)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (17:10.69)
to do this. It wasn't seen as this additional thing they were doing because they cared or they were committed or they were really valuable or they were good at that. There is something called, I don't even know if there's a specific term for it, but if you've heard of the expression office mom.
Gill Moakes (17:29.515)
Yeah. Oh yeah. Definitely.
Melina Cordero (17:30.626)
You've heard of the expression office mom. Oh, Judy's the office mom. She always gets everyone kicked, right? As an example.
Gill Moakes (17:35.787)
Yes, I've heard of that so many times. I was always really like a letdown in getting of the cake task. So I was never the office mum, but there was very often, no, but there was often.
Melina Cordero (17:39.104)
Office Moms.
Melina Cordero (17:44.962)
I was never the office mom. And there's nothing wrong with being the office mom. Someone who cares about the culture, who's thinking about their people, it's a wonderful thing. But it's typically not compensated and it's not recognized as a productive, useful value add tool by the powers that be. So what happens is that in the workplace, because of our assumptions and biases that we all have, no matter what your gender identity,
Gill Moakes (17:51.197)
Absolutely.
Gill Moakes (17:55.531)
Yeah, it's a lovely thing, but...
Gill Moakes (18:01.571)
right.
Melina Cordero (18:12.226)
is just sort of assume that these things come more naturally to women, or that women want to do them, or that they're easier for women, that it's kind of second nature.
Gill Moakes (18:16.203)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (18:23.49)
But it's not. It's effort, it's thinking ahead, it's value in culture and thinking about how something may make someone feel, how something may impact a team, culture and collaboration, which ultimately impacts productivity. So what was interesting is that women were disproportionately doing this more often. And...
Gill Moakes (18:36.329)
Right.
Melina Cordero (18:45.186)
that when they did it, they weren't really recognized for it in any way as it being value add. But if a man does it, let's say a man would volunteer to organize a lunch or a dinner, they were recognized for it. Because again, with our assumptions and bias, it was seen as, wow, he's really stepping out of his comfort zone for this. He's really doing this thing. Wow. And he would be recognized for it. Yeah. And so, yeah, well,
Gill Moakes (18:58.219)
Yeah, everyone's talking about it.
Gill Moakes (19:05.579)
Right.
How irritating.
Melina Cordero (19:12.224)
irritating on the one hand and inequitable on the other more importantly, right?
Gill Moakes (19:12.401)
That's it.
Gill Moakes (19:16.747)
It utterly inequitable, but I have a question just on that one is, and that is that I get this gut feel, and I don't know if the data backs this up, but I have this gut feel that this isn't, it doesn't feel to me like it's a situation where only the men are thinking that way. And the women are feeling resentful about being the ones who are doing the, getting the cars and things. It's almost like, I think women.
have been for so long in that role that I think some women feel it's just part of what they do or who they are. Would you say that that's... Okay.
Melina Cordero (19:55.394)
Yeah, it's a mixed bag. It's a mixed bag. Because we have these expectations and we know their expectations, like you said, I disappointed people because I wasn't the office mom, right? And you're joking, but it's true. So there's certain expectations. And so what happens is you have some women who do it because they know it's important. And even if they know they're not going to be recognized for it, they know it's important to the people and they know it's important to the team dynamic and productivity and things like that. So they do it. And they may not be aware of it.
Gill Moakes (20:01.321)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (20:06.251)
Yes. But it's true.
Gill Moakes (20:19.979)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (20:24.61)
And there are also a lot of other women, especially women, I would say, who are rising up or who are definitely the younger generation because we have been learning about this, I guess, a little bit more aware. And it's sort of a bigger topic of conversation, much more sensitive and aware to these requests. And so then we become aware when we're asked to take notes in a meeting, even though we're
Gill Moakes (20:46.667)
Mm.
Melina Cordero (20:53.026)
one of the senior folks in the room, or we're asked if we want to serve on this committee, or we're at, and by ask, I mean, voluntold, right? We're not volunteering, we're being voluntold a lot of times. And so here's the dilemma. We may be aware that you're asking me because I'm a woman, you're placing additional burden on me that I'm not going to be recognized for and that my male colleagues are not having to deal with, but the issue is that it's not easy to say no, no.
Gill Moakes (21:01.511)
Yeah, vol and hold. I love that. Vol and hold.
Melina Cordero (21:21.122)
You'll hear all the time phrases like, oh, well, women struggle to say no. Maybe, but here's the bigger thing. Women struggle to say no, not just because we are afraid of disappointing people, sometimes sure, but statistically, we know from the research that when a woman says no to something, it is interpreted very differently than when a man says no in the workplace. When a man says no to something because he says it's not a priority,
Gill Moakes (21:22.251)
Ha!
Gill Moakes (21:42.603)
Yes. Yeah, she's difficult.
Melina Cordero (21:49.026)
or it's, I really don't have the time and I really need to focus on XYZ or that's not in my remit.
Gill Moakes (21:57.323)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (21:57.642)
Generally, statistically speaking, they're considered good at setting boundaries, assertive, confident in their role and in themselves. When a woman says the exact same thing, and even maybe in the exact same tone, they're seen as uncooperative, not collaborative, not committed, and sometimes, you know, aggressive or hostile. And so we have whether we're aware of it or not.
Gill Moakes (22:18.409)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (22:21.41)
sort of internalized that. And so the fear and the struggle to say no is not just about not wanting to disappoint people, but it's a tangible knowledge that if and when we say no, we could be penalized for it, even though we don't want to do it or we don't have time or we see an issue with it.
Gill Moakes (22:36.299)
Right.
Gill Moakes (22:42.987)
You know, as you're saying that I can absolutely, I'm just being transported back to when I did working commercial insurance for years and years. And it's just taken me completely back there because it's so true in my experience, it's so true. I can remember being labeled difficult for not just going with the flow and
Melina Cordero (22:43.616)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (23:11.463)
accepting everything that was being put on me. And you're absolutely right, that wasn't the experience of the men that I worked alongside. It's incredibly interesting.
Melina Cordero (23:20.822)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (23:24.706)
that what I'm saying here isn't that men are purposely giving us more work or treating us differently. Most of this is what we often call unconscious or implicit bias. We're not aware. And we as women oftentimes interpret another woman's no differently than a man's no. We have very similar biases because we've been raised, you know, career wise and in the same environment as them.
Gill Moakes (23:38.355)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (23:46.409)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (23:53.835)
Yeah, and that's the point, isn't it? We've got it ingrained in us as well. This isn't something that's happening and we're really aware of it and men aren't. This is something where there's a blurred line, isn't there, where we're not always aware of it either. So that was one of these key themes that came out of the project.
Melina Cordero (24:09.314)
Yeah. Yeah.
Mm -hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (24:20.555)
So I suppose my mind's going to like, well, how do you change like that kind of thing? How do leaders...
make changes within their organizations so that that kind of thing doesn't happen. It feels to me like turning a really big ship.
So how does it... I love that. It just sounds like it's gonna be, but why should... Yeah, but you're right. Why should it be? It's about awareness, isn't it?
Melina Cordero (24:39.01)
I think so. It feels like turning a really big shift, but a really big shift, but...
Melina Cordero (24:47.394)
No, I think they're super, super, super simple changes. So one is, look, education and learning is always going to be a big part of this. So there needs to be ongoing learning and awareness of the things that I just talked about. What does the research say? What does the data say? What's bias? And it's good to do unconscious bias workshops. It's really important, but try and get specific. Like maybe we do a session on gender bias in communication.
For example, what are some of the most common forms of inequality or inequities that happen in meetings in the workplace? Let's get specific about these things so that we can start to recognize, because until we know what they are, we can't recognize them.
And then once we recognize them, we can actually do something about them. So I do think that we need to, A, first step, always become more aware of these things. All of these things that I told you, the number of times I've spoken to men or women and said this thing about non -promotable tasks and mentioned something like organizing the lunch, the sort of light bulb goes off for men and women, any gender that I'm speaking with, and they go, oh my goodness, you're so right. I've had lots of male colleagues, clients say,
Gill Moakes (25:56.683)
Yes.
Melina Cordero (26:01.696)
That's a really interesting point. I had never thought about it. I just thought that Jane always liked organizing lunch, and so I just always left it to her. But wow, now I'm going to think about this a little more. Maybe I should do it next time, or I should delegate to a male member of the team instead of making Jane, who's a senior partner, do it all the time. So awareness is one. And then the other thing is I think our workplace is, no matter what your sector,
Gill Moakes (26:23.657)
Mm. Mm.
Melina Cordero (26:31.394)
are full of these quote unquote non -promotable tasks, tasks that are actually really important, but we don't recognize them as such. So I do think there's an opportunity here to be recognizing things like committee work.
Gill Moakes (26:45.259)
Mm.
Melina Cordero (26:46.938)
work or task or responsibilities that contributes to culture, right? Culture has become a really important word, a really important initiative in the workplace since 2020, right? Because how do we cultivate specific cultural values in a hybrid environment? And so let's start to...
put them on paper, let's start to recognize them. Let's start to say, if you serve on a culture committee or a DEI committee, or you're running an ERG, an employee resource group within your organization, or you're helping organize XYZ event, let's make sure that we create a spot in our annual review that is additional tasks that you may be doing outside of your remit. Write all of those down.
I as your leader, as your boss, as your manager, I've got to make sure I take those into account. So let's just start to value, place value on those things.
Gill Moakes (27:36.427)
Gosh, simple, isn't it? That is a very simple action. But it takes someone like you to do this project and to actually bring this data to the top. Just going back to these non -promotable tasks, it's just reminded me of someone that I work with who is a guy who often would go and get the birthday card.
Melina Cordero (27:40.642)
Super.
Melina Cordero (27:51.392)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (28:06.347)
for the person and would just do it. But I remember that we would actually talk about that and say, oh, isn't Dave good? You know, he went and got the cut. Yeah, and we would do it all. Isn't Dave good for doing that?
Melina Cordero (28:18.082)
Yeah.
Yeah, so it's really similar. It's really funny when I was growing up, both of my parents worked. My father had a more flexible work schedule. So he was a professor, my mother was a librarian. My mother had fixed hours, so she had to be at her desk in the library. Whereas my father had more flexibility in terms of he only had certain hours of class and then he worked outside of that. But he had a little bit more of a flexible schedule.
Gill Moakes (28:33.929)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (28:37.931)
Right.
Gill Moakes (28:48.649)
Mm.
Melina Cordero (28:49.078)
And so oftentimes it was my dad who was taking us to the bus stop as children in the morning. And it was so interesting because oftentimes he was the only father who was at the bus stop. And all the other moms, you know, they were neighborhood moms, we all knew each other, we were friends, were always talking about how wonderful my father was and how, oh my goodness, so present and all these things.
Gill Moakes (28:54.827)
Right. Right.
Gill Moakes (29:13.739)
I can hear it. Yes.
Melina Cordero (29:16.45)
And he is, and he was and he is a fantastic father, very present, all the things, but, you know, it was just sort of a given that the mothers were, right, right. And by the way, my mom just didn't want anything to do with the bus stop. She was like, I don't have time for that, right? But my father was like, they put these like wings on him, right? And he was this saint because he did this thing that they were doing every single morning.
Gill Moakes (29:18.251)
Of course!
Gill Moakes (29:24.459)
No one would have said that about your mum. It was just a given. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. Bye.
Gill Moakes (29:39.339)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (29:45.612)
But because they, you know, they weren't used to seeing a dad at the bus stop, they thought he was this incredibly amazing person. And, and well, why aren't all of the moms too? Because they're doing the same thing.
Gill Moakes (29:47.435)
fascinating.
Gill Moakes (29:56.395)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (30:00.802)
Right? And there's this underlying belief or assumption that women are just programmed for these things and men aren't. So when a man does it, they're, wow, they're really making an effort. And that's just not true. It's factually, scientifically, it's not true. We have been conditioned, trained to be more attuned to certain things like, is my kid cold? Is my kid, you know, whatever it might be, but we're not biologically programmed. We've learned.
Gill Moakes (30:14.217)
No.
Gill Moakes (30:29.003)
No, it's all learned. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's all learned from go back to when I guess men set the rules because they were bigger and stronger at one point.
Melina Cordero (30:30.082)
This is important.
Melina Cordero (30:43.49)
Well, let me take this opportunity to highlight one moment a book I just finished that talks specifically about this. It's called Inferior, How Science Got Women Wrong, and the new research that's rewriting the story. So anyone who's interested in this idea of what are the differences between men and women? Are we programmed certain ways, nurturers versus et cetera?
Gill Moakes (30:50.675)
Ew.
Gill Moakes (30:59.627)
Oh, that's a good recommendation.
Melina Cordero (31:12.986)
This book is written by a scientist, a woman who does an incredible job of navigating the science and the data and saying, this is the truth, this is what's nature, this is what's nurture, and these are a lot of our assumptions around men and women that are inherently flawed. And so really, really eye -opening, lots of interesting information for anybody who's interested in diving into that topic a little more.
Gill Moakes (31:26.665)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (31:39.115)
I'll put the link to that in the show notes. I love your, Melina does the best book recommendations. You need to look her up on YouTube. Your YouTube channel is brilliant for book recommendations. So I will also link to that in the show notes. Yeah, definitely. So what else, what else came from the project? What else stands out as something that can, that action could be taken on quite simply, you know?
Melina Cordero (31:51.97)
Yes, at P20 Workplace, yeah. Thanks.
Melina Cordero (32:08.418)
Yeah, yeah, a lot. So here's one that's come up a lot through the Women on Work project, but also through my work with clients. So with my clients, so organizations of all sizes, I do a practice called the Culture Audit, where I administer a survey that's very customized to the organization to understand the dynamics of culture, opportunities, obstacles. And then I also have one -on -one conversations. It's almost an extension of my Women on Work.
conversations, but it includes all genders because I'm talking to everyone. So it helps me see the compare and contrast, you know, what some of the female employees may be feeling versus everyone else. So one of the things that's come up and, you know, the word microaggressions comes up a lot in terms of these smalls, sometimes people describe them as paper cuts that are oftentimes a notice or an intentional, but, you know, way on us build up over the course of the day that make us feel excluded.
Gill Moakes (33:00.267)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (33:03.106)
And there was one in particular that comes up a lot and that I realized I experienced a lot, which was around social and networking events, how much women are oftentimes excluded. Now,
Gill Moakes (33:14.987)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (33:19.426)
When you are the only ex in a room or on a team, let's say in my case where I was the only woman on a team, I was acutely aware always when I walked into a room or was sitting on a call that I was the only woman. So there's this awareness that is actually quite burdensome. We get used to it. We try not to pay attention to it. We try and ignore it and just power through. But psychologically, cognitively, they have found that it does cause stress to be the only ex in the room, right?
Gill Moakes (33:34.571)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (33:38.443)
All right.
Gill Moakes (33:44.395)
Yep. Yep.
Melina Cordero (33:46.754)
No matter how nice and welcoming and wonderful everyone else is, when you are the only of your whatever identity that might be, it's stressful. And so what I found to happen, I came from an industry that was very sales oriented and very much relationship dependent, relationship built. So we were talking about brokerage, closing deals, building relationship with clients over long term. And so a lot of the...
Gill Moakes (33:54.219)
Right? Yeah.
Melina Cordero (34:15.1)
success in your role or on your team was related to the relationships you could build with other people and those relationships happened through dinners, drinks, lunch, coffee dates, ski trips, client trips, inviting the clients and the wives as they used to call them to your ski home and wherever, right? Now, what was happening is a lot of times because...
Gill Moakes (34:25.387)
Of course. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (34:30.163)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (34:42.178)
the sector, the company had been primarily male dominated, these were men that had always attended. And it became sort of a guy's thing, you know, a friendly guy's thing. Now, what happened in my case is I, you know, the guys would get together and go to their annual ski trip or their annual weekend, but I wouldn't get invited, either because they assumed I didn't want to be there or they assumed, you know, it was just between the guys.
Gill Moakes (35:04.491)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (35:11.202)
But what's happening here is that women are missing out on huge and very important networking opportunities. And also I'd say over the past couple of years, obviously there's been a rise in Me Too and things like that. And I do hear from a lot of men a fear of, you know, if I come into town, I'm going to invite John out to a drink and talk shop and life and all these things. I'm not going to invite Melina because I don't want it to be interpreted wrong.
Right? Or I don't want there to be any confusion or anything like that. So that's happening a lot. It's happening a lot and it's happening with clients. It's happening with colleagues and it's really frustrating and concerning for women because we are being measured. Oftentimes harder than than our male peers, but we're also getting fewer opportunities to build those client relationships to network.
Gill Moakes (35:50.345)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (36:00.875)
Absolutely.
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (36:07.604)
to expand out. So that is something that was a clear challenge. And so the question is, well, what do we do about that? Do we tell the boys they can't go on boys trips? Like no boys only trips allowed. And my response to that is in an ideal world, we would make everything inclusive, but I don't think that that's a practical feasible thing right now. And I also think that it could generate resentment on the part of...
Gill Moakes (36:28.435)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (36:34.562)
some of these people who have, let's say they tend to be all men and they've built these relationships and it's an important thing for them, right? If we tell them you can't do that anymore, they're gonna start to associate gender equity with negative things. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (36:46.923)
them losing out or them losing something, having something taken away from them. Right.
Melina Cordero (36:53.154)
Yeah, so here again, just like the first thing we talked about around the non -promotable task, I think there are two very simple solutions. One is making sure that, let's say in the case of you have a team, you have colleagues, make sure that the male colleagues are aware that this is happening, because a lot of times they don't even realize. Make sure that they're aware that this is happening and this can affect your female colleagues professionally and personally.
Gill Moakes (37:13.513)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (37:19.682)
really importantly here professionally and giving them fewer opportunities. So if you are invited to a trip or you do organize one yourself, can you advocate for your female colleagues and say, hey, we really should have Janet join this one. She's been working on the deal and she's great. She should definitely be here. So can you advocate for that?
Gill Moakes (37:21.395)
Mm.
Gill Moakes (37:42.475)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (37:43.522)
And in the case that that's not an option, let's say it's not your trip to organize or there's very limited seating or whatever it might be, here's what you do instead. Because the core of it is that this tradition and this habit and this practice is essentially creating a situation like this where men have more networking and collaboration opportunities, which will lead to professional opportunities and their female colleagues because of this. So what to do?
Equity is about recognizing that gap and doing something to fill it. So my solution, and I worked on this with a client firm that was very male dominated sector, and this was happening a lot, is you create networking opportunities for the women. You make an extra effort to create more connection, networking, relationship client opportunities for the women so that...
Gill Moakes (38:15.979)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (38:35.17)
They're not equal because equality would be everyone's doing the same thing, but it's more equitable because now we're creating these networking opportunities to fill the gap that they're not being invited to these things. So what does that look like?
Gill Moakes (38:46.891)
love that. And also, one thing that I believe is that when we do that, and we close up that gap, that's only the first stage anyway. That's the brilliant first step. But over time, you know, I would love to believe that then eventually common sense comes in and says, Hey, how come we're funding like these two things? Wouldn't it be much better if we merge these two things and all have the equal opportunities?
And it would, it will happen much more naturally if that interim steps been taken at first to just bridge that gap. So I really love that. And it's, this isn't anything complicated, is it? It's not, it's not a huge ask.
Melina Cordero (39:25.298)
Exactly. Exactly.
Melina Cordero (39:29.922)
It's not anything complicated. And it's not, and it's a huge ask financially or time wise, right? So.
Gill Moakes (39:38.027)
Right.
Melina Cordero (39:38.07)
to one particular client I was working on this with, it was, okay, how much are you spending on the ski trip for the guys? All right, well, can you put some money towards sponsoring all of your female employees get a chance to go to the industry female conference, like, you women's conference, or you're sponsoring their membership in a women's industry association, or you are paying to...
have an annual dinner or a quarterly dinner that joins your female, senior female leaders with other female client leaders in the industry to promote networking, which is win -win for everyone because you are creating networking opportunities for your women and you're strengthening your relationship with clients. So I saw this happen a lot in...
Gill Moakes (40:17.417)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (40:21.003)
Definitely.
Melina Cordero (40:29.858)
I was in retail real estate, so shopping center, investors and retailers, and all these things. And the women were doing this. They were creating initiatives saying, okay, we have this major national industry conference happening. Let's get some of the women together the night before so we can gather, we can share best practices, we can just connect and network. And that's happening. So how can you, if you're a company leader, how can you support that and maybe put some dollars towards it and say, hey,
Gill Moakes (40:34.891)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (40:44.691)
Mm.
Melina Cordero (40:56.45)
I know you're going to this conference. I want to give you some budget to organize a networking function and invite whoever you think.
Gill Moakes (41:03.563)
Yeah.
I mean, God, when we talk about it, to us, it, I don't know, it just seems so obvious. It's like, why, why would that not be happening? But the reality is that it doesn't always happen. And the reality is that, you know, this throwback boys trips and that kind of thing, it does still go on. And the awareness has to be raised across the board, doesn't it? To, to, to shine some light on it.
Melina Cordero (41:12.77)
Yeah. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (41:33.835)
Sometimes I think even just the raising of awareness about this will prompt people to take the obvious action anyway to address it. Yeah.
Melina Cordero (41:42.21)
Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, to use your phrase, the reality is that everyone's really busy. We've been asked to adapt and change a lot over the past couple of years since the pandemic. It's not easy to just take some time and think creatively and differently about these things. And so that's where I come in. And that's where I want to be that creative thing is I focused on this. I think about this all day long. I'm coming up with creative solutions. Let me help you because you don't it's not your job. It's not your.
Gill Moakes (41:58.475)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (42:08.873)
Exactly!
Melina Cordero (42:12.386)
your specialty, you don't have time. And it's been a lot on leaders over the past couple of years, the amount of shape shifting. And so I want to be able to provide those sorts of creative, feasible solutions and take that burden off of them. So that's a lot of what I do.
Gill Moakes (42:28.491)
I love that. And I know, I believe that a lot of the clients that you work with, a lot of the organizations you work with, there's also this element of, there's fear of getting it wrong too. And I think when people bring someone like you in, it's so reassuring for them because it's like they want and probably need to a certain extent that validation.
that they're not getting it wrong, because no one wants to try and solve a solution and just put something even more damaging in place in its place. You know, and we know that mistakes can happen in that arena. So I think that's something else you bring. Am I right in thinking that this is something that you will go and talk to organizations about as well? Just, you know, the outcomes from the Women's Project, because it is such interesting. I mean, we've only...
Melina Cordero (43:02.338)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (43:06.274)
Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (43:22.731)
gone over a couple of the key points, but it's such an interesting topic. So if an organization wanted to hire you to come in and just talk to their people about this, is that possible?
Melina Cordero (43:29.09)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (43:36.45)
Yeah, and there are two ways I do this. Outside of my sort of strategy and advisory work that I work on with clients and developing specific strategies and policies and practices that fit within their organization and mission. But there are two ways that I've taken this knowledge and learning from this project, Women on Work, to make it actually useful for organizations. So one is I regularly speak on this. So whether it's to women's groups, it's in company events.
organizations that are looking for speakers to come in at internal or external or client events to talk about what's changing in leadership, what we can do better, what we can do differently. I'm doing that all the time now. And then the other way that I integrate this into my work with organizations is through workshops. So,
Gill Moakes (44:23.435)
Mmm.
Melina Cordero (44:23.49)
If I come in, I do a talk, I can plant some seeds, I can share some information, a workshop is a way to get a little bit more hands -on and a little bit more practical with in coming up with specific tools. And so when I say workshop, I say things like all of these discoveries I made through this project and identifying what a challenge is and then what the solutions are, the workshop is really about digging into the specifics of how to implement that.
Gill Moakes (44:49.867)
Right. Yeah.
Melina Cordero (44:50.658)
and how to actually do something about it. So if it's an example of gender bias in communication, it's doing an assessment around what are our different communication styles and processing styles, and then how can some of those be interpreted as bias, and then how can we avoid that so that we create an environment where everyone feels that their voice is valued, however that comes out, and however that may be.
Gill Moakes (45:11.721)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (45:16.139)
So I can really see how this project has informed the work that you're doing now as well, because presumably some of these things that have come out, the two examples that we've looked at, the microaggressions and also this kind of non -promotable work, I guess that that has really fed now these workshops. So if it's around that topic, you really know what you're looking for now in terms of assessing what's going on in the...
Melina Cordero (45:44.098)
Yeah.
Gill Moakes (45:45.099)
So what a great project to have carried out.
Melina Cordero (45:49.026)
Yeah, and I want to mention that I started the project in 2021 where I felt we were at a really important inflection point and I wanted to capture the experiences of how we were navigating that turning point and these transformations and going forward. And I want to emphasize that this is a project that is ongoing and open. And it's really important, I think, that we chart how these stories change or don't change.
Gill Moakes (45:54.409)
Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (46:17.566)
over time. And so if anyone's listening to this and is really curious or interested in getting involved in the project, either as a woman who wants to share her story confidentially, or as a person who would like to maybe bring these insights to their team or organization or association, this is an open ongoing project. And I definitely invite you, I have a page on my website.
Gill Moakes (46:34.729)
Bye.
Melina Cordero (46:41.01)
specific to the Women on Work project and you can go there and get more information either about participating as a woman sharing her experience or as someone who would like to bring these learnings to their organization.
Gill Moakes (46:55.077)
Perfect. So I'm going to put a link to the show notes to your website, which is Melina Cordero .com, right? And we'll put a link into that specific women on work page as well. And so also women listening who want to be involved, like you say, the best way for them to reach out is to go to that page and there'll be a way for them to to kind of register an interest in talking to you, which is brilliant.
Melina Cordero (47:22.882)
Yeah, absolutely. Literally on the page is everything about the project, why I'm doing it, how it works, confidentiality, privacy, the kinds of questions I ask. And then there's a link to go ahead and schedule a session or you can email me if you have a couple questions before you commit.
Gill Moakes (47:39.531)
This is such important work and I love that this is an ongoing project because it wouldn't make sense for it not to be, would it? We're definitely not there yet. So this has to be an ongoing project.
Melina Cordero (47:51.298)
No, and I say this all the time with leadership in DEI, the learning never ends. You can be an expert in DEI. I am a practitioner. I do this day in, day out. I will never stop learning. I, every day I'm reading new research, articles, new perspectives, new books. This is ongoing. And so I want to take that burden off of everyone of thinking I need to be an expert in this or I need to get to X point in order to be equitable. No, this is ongoing.
Gill Moakes (47:56.715)
Right.
Gill Moakes (48:16.287)
Yeah.
Melina Cordero (48:20.268)
It's ongoing, it's always learning, it's always not knowing answers to things. There are tons of things I don't need the answer to, and my job is learning as much as I can every single day to be able to help people do and be better.
Gill Moakes (48:20.803)
Absolutely.
Gill Moakes (48:34.699)
Wow. What a lovely way to end this conversation. Oh, Melina, thank you so much. I think this is such an interesting topic and I know, I know everyone listening is going to be interested in this. And, and I think a lot of our listeners are either having their own business, but have had that corporate experience. So it's going to really resonate with them. So I know for me,
This has been so interesting because I feel like I've been transported back 20, 10 years. Yeah, which feels like a lifetime ago now, but yeah.
Melina Cordero (49:09.344)
Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm. Mm -hmm.
Melina Cordero (49:15.618)
Yeah. And by the way, the women I spoke to were at all different levels and all different kinds of organizations. So I spoke to women who work in the government, the federal government. I spoke to women who work in private companies, large and small. I spoke to women who work at very mission driven nonprofits. And here's what I'll say. There's an incredible amount of commonality and common challenges across all.
Gill Moakes (49:26.921)
Bye.
Melina Cordero (49:44.834)
types and sizes of organization. There's oftentimes this misconception that if it's in the government or if it's this mission -driven nonprofit organization that things are better or less inequitable.
Gill Moakes (49:54.859)
Yeah, I must admit I kind of had that assumption.
Melina Cordero (49:59.362)
Mm -mm. No.
Gill Moakes (50:00.395)
But it, but no.
Melina Cordero (50:02.594)
No, because we're talking about human biases. We're talking about human assumptions. And whether you work at a nonprofit or a big private company, you're not more or less human than each other, right? And so we're all hindered by our human cognitive limitations and the limitations of our experiences. We all have them. And so it doesn't matter the context of the work. We're talking about human interactions. And that's where I play.
Gill Moakes (50:05.533)
Right, absolutely.
Gill Moakes (50:12.715)
Bye.
Gill Moakes (50:16.201)
Mm -hmm.
Gill Moakes (50:32.235)
I just want to also say that the solutions to this, as you're saying, and the kind of work you do to help organizations deal with this and make changes, this isn't, they don't have to re, you know, knock everything down in their business and start again, often the solutions are pretty simple, but it's
having someone like you to come in and really assess where they are and assess where they need to start in making change. It's such important work. Thank you.
Melina Cordero (51:07.874)
Yeah. Little hinges swing big doors. That's my motto that drives a lot of my work with organizations. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Gill Moakes (51:11.787)
Oh.
love that yeah so true thank you so much and will you come on again before too long
Melina Cordero (51:20.514)
Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you for making space to have these conversations and share these new ideas and projects and connect women with opportunities and collaboration.
Gill Moakes (51:30.155)
Absolutely.
Anything that affects women is a topic for this podcast. So I am more than happy to share that. And thank you so much. Bye for now.
Melina Cordero (51:42.53)
Thank you.
